matching belly#s no vin# on 51?

Identifaction of VIN, case numbers and cylinder heads
VT

Re: matching belly#s no vin# on 51?

#31

Post by VT » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:39 am

Methinks AAOK has crossed the line
By stamping numbers on the left case i.d. boss blank :?: It's not a bad idea, imo. You can stamp your cases 55FL 1903 and have it look real. The more real looking the type style is - the better. Maybe even mix up some of the number with different type sets, like they were altered by someone, just so some know-it-all will bitch-scream....."this motor's a fraud"... :!: ....before showing him the MSO # that's visible on the top right crankcase (below the original relay boss position). Fun.... at a rally where there's alot of people standing around.
As for the owner of the real 55FL1903 - He now has a duplicate or totally different 55FL1903 out there, one of them with two sets of numbers, "accent" and MSO.
Are there any pics of the AAOK OE style numbered cases :?: That would be great to see.
I was looking at those V-Twin short blocks and they have 1941 to 1965 74 in. motors with empty tappet guides, giving you the option of solid or hydraulic. That's pretty good.



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Re: matching belly#s no vin# on 51?

#32

Post by john HD » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:44 pm

i think i would be more than upset if i saw my numbers on someone elses bike.

i also think i would not wait to see their mso before reporting them to the law.


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Re: matching belly#s no vin# on 51?

#33

Post by Ohio-Rider » Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:35 pm

I agree John. This is one of those things that fall into the catagory of, "Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should". Why go looking for trouble if it can be avoided?

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Re: matching belly#s no vin# on 51?

#34

Post by Cotten » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:03 pm

Let us not forget why there are laws against un-authorized stamping and defacing of VINs:
Your machine may be the next to be stolen and tattooed.

....Cotten

VT

Re: matching belly#s no vin# on 51?

#35

Post by VT » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:26 pm

The point being, when does having too many numbers on your crankcases break the law :?: If your motor has the same numbers somewhere on the case (there is no law that says the MSO numbers have to be in an exact spot. That "spot" is wherever the manufacturer puts them.) Once the MSO is stamped, that's it. You can't touch the MSO numbers. There's the numbers on the case and the bikes' registration paper your carrying also has the MS0 numbers printed on it. Sounds legal to me so far.
The "accent" serial numbers (newly coined phrase, one of many to follow since now that the new 3.5 tanks are being made, there is a completely new Big Twin market being created) are just made-up numbers. They would be treated no differently than random numbers like say, matching case numbers, or foundry numbers. They're just numbers.
No laws have been broken. If you have the real 55FL1903 you don't have an MSO number. You have the real thing. If someone rolls into the parking lot with 55FL1903 on their repop cases, you have only one choice: You can jump the guy and start punching him, "Those (punch)...are (punch, punch) my (punch) ...case.....(punch) numbers" :!: :!: But that's about it, imo. No laws have been broken. All that's happened is that you can do some jail time for assault or/and instead of having one Panhead in a 1,000 mile radius, you now have two Panheads within 1,000 miles of each other. Extrapolated out (now including the new 3.5 gallon tanks), this means more people will have rigid frame Panheads that they bought in a box, instead of spending valuable time trying to cajole OEM antique parts away from people who hoard them.
I'm going to try and find an AAOK faux stamped case and post it.
•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Imo, the repop knuckle and early Pan cam covers look real, but the repop '54-64 cam cover looks not so real, although you can add some top-roll to the upper (generator area) casting and make it look better, but they basically did a lousy job on the replication of it. Have you seen that Knuckle motor on AAOK's site? Someone posted it on another topic. They look real.

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Re: matching belly#s no vin# on 51?

#36

Post by Cotten » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:41 pm

All identification numbers must be assigned through due process by legitimate authorities, or laws will be broken.

Adding is the same as defacing.
(It is just as illegal to alter or deface Factory belly production numbers, even though they are not even a VIN.)

....Cotten

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Re: matching belly#s no vin# on 51?

#37

Post by FlatHeadSix » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:29 pm

I think some of you guys are missing the point here, I have to agree with VT, the numbers that you (or anyone else) stamp on the VIN pad of a set of aftermarket case are purely decorative. VT calls them "accent" numbers.

The new cases come with a unique VIN or Serial number stamped somewhere else on the cases, it matches the MSO provided at time of purchase and it is the permanent number used to register the engine/motorcycle, it should also appear on the title.

If you choose to personalize your new cases by stamping a set of letters & numbers on the blank VIN pad, and they just happen to look exactly like what the factory might have put on there back in the day, it is probably perfectly legal. You have not defaced, altered, modified, or hidden the official legal numbers that were stamped on the new production cases, documented on the MSO, and used to register the engine. You simply added some additional numbers to the cases.

I agree that if you choose to do that you should make every effort to stamp a unique number on the cases so that you don't use one that already exists and that someone else may have on their genuine original machine.

Some of the last 45 flathead engines produced by Harley-Davidson came from the factory with blank VIN pads on the left case, the real VIN was stamped on the right case directly below the rear cylinder and used the new numbering system. Would it be legal to stamp something on the blank VIN pad?, how about my name, or the last 4 of my SSN, or some other marking which made it uniquely mine? I don't see why not.

The only problem I see here is if somebody tried to "launder" the engine by slipping it past some dumb DMV employee and actually successfully getting it registered with the numbers they stamped on the VIN pad. That would definetly be illegal!

just some thoughts

mike

VT

Re: matching belly#s no vin# on 51?

#38

Post by VT » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:49 pm

Exactly :!:
Do we have a representative from this site attending the Feb. 7 & 8 CinciExpo :?: Then why not :?: If you're going, take a fat MagicMarker® and write http://hydra-glide.com on front and back and over the left pocket scrawl "Official Reporter". We'd like to see your pic, wearing your official shirt right in front of the V-Twin exhibit. Tell them VT sent you. They like me over there, having issued me one and only "cease and desist" in the last 16 years, with which we complied, and were thanked.
Stand back AMCA... :!: We're building a road through here :!: I suggest the AMCA make a new division for judging called "Fakes" because we're here to stay. If they don't make a separate "replica" division for us, that's OK, we'll have our own free-show out in the parking lots of all meet events.
I'm waiting on pics of "accent" case numbers from AAOK, which they can post here or not.
•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
In theory, there may be some shops in the 49 states that are uniquely set-up to start producing "Fit-Kit" rolling chassis right now. These shops would buy the necessary parts for lets say, a 1955 Pan and fit them all together with pre-checked motor and trans mount/alignment and phosphate coat the raw-metal (for easier paint-prep later),w/or w/o tanks, but otherwise complete motorcycles. E-bay would be an outlet. They would build their name on customer feedback online. Their kits fit. Since the shop main income is from "sheet metal fabrication" or whatever, they have little "start-up" investment, only needing to dedicate one area for chassis fab. And when it gets slow in "sheet metal", their employees can fit fenders and work on mock-ups. When the "sheet metal" business picks up, the chassis are covered and the area is not disturbed. Tools are left as dropped.
Something like that.

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Re: matching belly#s no vin# on 51?

#39

Post by 51madpan » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:52 am

Hey madpan here...I just want to thank everybody in this forum for their advice and insight. Yes I have listed the cases on ebay. I just wanted to wash my hands of the whole thing. Yes, I want a panhead. I have dreamt about it since I was 11. Odd for a kid that was never surrounded by or grew up with bikers. I saw a 48 panhead chopper in an old easyrider. I was hooked. I ride and love my 81 shovel. But my dream of riding a rigid pan chop is still pounding in my heart. Bringing me to my point. Like most of you, I want a original Harley-Davidson pan. Not some aftermarket bullshit. If it takes me longer, and more sweat, and more money for a better start, then damn it that is what I will do. No exeptions. Barnfresh should be ashamed for doing buisness the way they did. Covering the vin boss and not stating they were removed is just plain f****d up. I should have insisted on my money back. I did call and bitch. You know what the guy told me?! "This isn't Wal-Mart...No returns." My demise was in splitting the cases. I only did so because I thought I could get the number boss fixed. Hard lesson learned. I am sure I will take a hefty loss, but it will not stop me from my dream of owning and riding the hell outta my own Panhead! Whatever year it is. Thanks again. I will be back I am sure for more advice. I will keep everyone posted on my progress. Thanks again.

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Re: matching belly#s no vin# on 51?

#40

Post by Cotten » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:32 am

Mike posted:
"I have to agree with VT, the numbers that you (or anyone else) stamp on the VIN pad of a set of aftermarket case are purely decorative. VT calls them "accent" numbers."

Nonetheless, most all States consider it a "felony".

Vanity doesn't carry any weight with the Authorities: Any un-authorized VIN stamping of any motorcase is illicit. Stamping a VIN boss, even on fresh aftermarket cases, is like writing your own prescription on a blank you found on your doctor's floor. "I wasn't really sick" won't excuse you for fraud.

Spontaneous numbers can never be explained as "decorative". A judge can only interpret them as an intent to deceive.

HD VIN numbers can only be assigned by HD, or re-assigned to replacements by State authorities. ANY and ALL private stampings are equated with theft.

Don't steal your own machine from yourself!

....Cotten

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Re: matching belly#s no vin# on 51?

#41

Post by mbskeam » Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:26 am

I wont get into the debate about vins...
but I do think that the belly numbers are a diffrent story, we know that they are for machining and keeping the case halfs as a set, and as a way for the factory at the time to keep internall records...
these are not vins, they are not on any titles or registration documents, that I have seen aor read about...
any body have these numbers on a state issued document?

they are just numbers..........
only the cops use them , at times to get stolen bikes, yes....
but I think also to F*ck with people.....

as the stater that did my inspection said, and I quote
"god I hate harley's, they ALL have been stolen at one time or anothor"

I'm thinkin what an asshole, keep your f'in coments to your self....


mbskeam

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Re: matching belly#s no vin# on 51?

#42

Post by FlatHeadSix » Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:40 am

I'm still not convinced Cotten. This is all purely hypohetical because I don't plan on ever doing anything like this but I would still think that the courts would agree with my logic. I will agree that it is not worth the risk or the hassle to prove the point and, as I have already said, the benefit of doubt usually goes to the boys in blue. but..............

Case in point (pun intended), here are pictures I took of both sides of the wife's 1971 Servi engine. As I said above Harley was using the new numbering system at the time, it left the factory with the VIN stamped on the right case just below the rear tappet blocks. I have a photostat of the original title with that number on it, same as the current title and the registration slip. It is obvious that they never stamped anything on the left case. The belly numbers match and are unmolested. I think it might be a case (sorry) of defining "VIN Pad", in 1971 the factory standard, accepted, VIN Pad was the surface below the tappet blocks on the right case. The raised surface on the left case above the timing plug is just some extra aluminum. I can't believe that anyone would think it was illegal if I stamped "MIKE'S BIKE" or "71SERVICAR" on the left case, I'm not stamping the VIN Pad, its on the other side. I think you could apply the same logic to new manufacture cases where the serial number is always stamped in the same known location other than what was traditionally used for VIN numbers on original cases.

It really is not worth arguing but I had to put it out here anyway.

mike
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Re: matching belly#s no vin# on 51?

#43

Post by Cotten » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:46 pm

Folks,

I base my statements upon my own experience and interactions with the Illinois State Police investigators over three decades, and as a state-licensed dealer since 1993.

For instance, I lost a set of my own cases because of welded over belly production numbers. That particular 'case' brought in the FBI as the culprit was out of state.

I suggest that you all contact your own State authorities before you proceed to interpret laws, or attempt to write your own!

....Cotten

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Re: matching belly#s no vin# on 51?

#44

Post by mbskeam » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:24 am

so if ya blow the bottom of the cases out , have them repaired, they have no belly numbers then. unless they get stamped back on......
what about this?

mbskeam

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