Torque specs for the rear axle

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dragpipe
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:04 pm
Location: canada

Torque specs for the rear axle

#1

Post by dragpipe » Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:45 am

hey bros
Ive been reading the posts and can see you are all pretty knowledgeable dudes.anyway I finally own a panhead after many years of dreamin.I bought my first harley when I was 29. its a 1975 xlch (sporty) it was pretty much a basket when I got it but after many thousands and alot of head scratchin I finally have it lookin and running pretty solid. I bought a 53 fl a year ago and Im trying to learn as much as i can. I rewired the whole bike , changed the plugs, put a cv carb on, instead of the zenith, changed rear brakes to disc, new axle and spacers, new oil, filled her full of gas, and after sitting idle since 82, she fired up on about the 5th kick. I bought it as is and under the word that it was a one kick pony.
anyway Im gonna have alot of q but for now im having trouble finding out the proper tourque specs . Ive been told 55-60 ft lbs but this seems to bind the rear wheel. not sure if its the wheel or brakes (disc). also how can i find original pictures or info on a 53 fl for refernce if i restore to original?

thanks alot and any response will be helpfull.



fourthgear
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Re: Torque specs for the rear axle

#2

Post by fourthgear » Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:48 pm

dragpipes
Do you have the org. bearings in the spool or has it been changed to timkin bearing ( modern)? The torque specs you gave I think are for timkin type bearings. I have my stock rear spool changed over to timkin bearings and I torque it @ 50 #. Do you have the proper spacers for that set up , you could be binding or pulling the disc against the pad if not spaced properly.

57pan
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Re: Torque specs for the rear axle

#3

Post by 57pan » Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:10 pm

I could be wrong but I don't think that the torque on the axle nut has any effect on the side-play for either the original style rollers or the tapered roller bearing conversion. I'm talking about star hubs which is all that I am familiar with. You may very well have something different seeing as you have a disk brake.

I'm inclined to agree with fourthgear that it is binding on the disk rotor. Remove the caliper and see if that fixes the problem. If it does then you're going to have to figure out how to correct the alignment so it doesn't bind.

As to your question about reference material: Palmers "How to Restore Your Harley Davidson" is the bible.

mbskeam
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Re: Torque specs for the rear axle

#4

Post by mbskeam » Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:10 am

I assume that you put on a latter dual flanged hub set up.....
if the internal spacer in the hub is to short it will bind the wheel when the axle is tightened. this is because the timmkens have no side play, I think you want .002-.005 end play when the axle nut is tight.
(they make diff. length spacers) REV A....
as it has been said, I would take off the chain and caliper.
as this may be the problem, instead of the spacer in the hub.

or are you runnin something different?

mbskeam

dragpipe
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:04 pm
Location: canada

Re: Torque specs for the rear axle

#5

Post by dragpipe » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:57 pm

WOW
thanks alot to everyone who responded. thats incredible! If I cant figure it out with all youre advise, I shouldnt own it. JUST KIDDN. till death do us part! Im learnin as i go and the clymers manual is garbage. Im putting the bike in the air now so Im sure Ill figure it out.
Im a litlle confused when it comes to the cuircut breaker. i have a single point, manual advance and i read you guys saying you have to retard it. what exactly doe you mean and when why and how often do you do this . Also Im not 100% sure on how to polarize the generator. I have a 12 volt system.
thanks again guys , i can read all youre posts for hours.
these may seem like dumb questions but hey, if you dont know how do you find out right!
anyway ride hard

57pan
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Re: Torque specs for the rear axle

#6

Post by 57pan » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:23 am

dragpipes,

You're not alone in your opinion of the Clymer manual, but I have that one and the reprint of the factory service manual. I use them both and sometimes one is more helpful and sometimes the other one is. Then again sometimes neither one seems to tell me what I want to know. I will say that the Clymer manual seems a little more geared toward the do-it-yourselfer who does not have every special tool that Harley ever made.

On your manual advance circuit breaker. The control for the advance used to be on the left handle grip. You twist the grip like a throttle to advance and retard the timing. A lot of these old bikes have had the handlebars replaced and the left twist grip is no longer there.

So, you normally run it with the circuit breaker in the full-advanced position. However, with the timing full-advanced it has a nasty tendancy to kick back on you when you start it. So, to minimize that tendency you have to manually retard the timing just slightly while starting it. If you're looking down on the circuit breaker you twist it clockwise to retard it. I usually have to retard mine about 1/4" when I start it. Then, after it starts, I move it back to full advance and attach a spring to it to hold it there.


BTW - welcome to the board.

Pantony
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin

Re: Torque specs for the rear axle

#7

Post by Pantony » Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:43 pm

Well you have disc brakes in back the stock ones were drums (that I can lock up all day long, don't know why you need discs) and when you changed those there were spacers on the axle. Now your going to either be an experimental engineer or put the old brakes back on because you could buy all the right spacers without a problem for the old setup. "put a cv carb on, instead of the zenith, " Well it never was built with a Zenith, it had a Linkert when it was new so now your going to have to find the right jetting on top everything else but a CV carb is a great carb and plenty of people here have put them on and they do run better and use less fuel I'm told. As far as a 12 volt system I have heard they are alright, don't know why anyone would change from 6 to 12volts I don't think any of my buds around here (Milwaukee) use 12 volts, but we are all a bunch of originalists and we never have any starting, running, point burning problems. I just can't justify all the expense and then you have aftermarket this and that in your electrical system to deal with, on top of a small battery inside a hot oil tank.

dragpipe
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:04 pm
Location: canada

Re: Torque specs for the rear axle

#8

Post by dragpipe » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:21 pm

pantony
basically the bike was bought as is. it wasnt put together completely and i put the parts (disc brakes) on myself. as i said before, i dont know much about pans and the only way of learning about them is to own one. I took my chances on this one, but i didnt care, they dont come around to often. I am only finding out NOW whats original and whats not. I dont know how you got affended or whatever... but youre advise would be appreciated if kept civil.
The only thing I put on it was the cv., and I never said they came with a zenith. as for the jetting.. big deal! It came converted to 12 volt, the battery came from the same shop that told me the brake set-up would work.
But I guess because I bought the bike with aftermarked this and that, you think I should give up.
dont really know where youre coming from man

57pan
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Re: Torque specs for the rear axle

#9

Post by 57pan » Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:11 pm

Dragpipe,

Hang in there man. I have to say that when I first read Pantony's post I did not take it that he was bashing you for having aftermarket this and that. He admitted that he is an "originalist" and he's not the only one on this forum, and they can sometimes be quite opinionated, but there are also plenty of us who have aftermarket this and that and who don't believe that the Harley engineers were divinely inspired. ;) We're all here to learn what we can and share what we know and have fun.

fourthgear
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Re: Torque specs for the rear axle

#10

Post by fourthgear » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:05 am

I Had a lot to say, but this is about torque specs. so I'll say nothing except, that the torquing of Timken bearings is to put a pre-load on them,( I think thats the right wording , my mind is not getting any younger )when torqued down with the proper spacing(spacers) You need to find out what you have , you must have the square tube swing arms so you can use the disc set up and what type of spool you have on the rim. I have seen custom cut spacers for axles in the past , hell they make them on American chopper. If you have some thing like a 75 swing arm set up , you can see if you have the right spacers by measuring them , I know i have see specs on them some where . What spool are you running will tell you some what of the year range.
I have the conversion spools for timken bearings , made to look like a star hub , including the star bolted on them and had to get a whole diff. axle and spacer to set it up for my drum brake. Some after market set ups may be picky about which way the rotor is installed ( some Evo's too ).

Pantony
Posts: 149
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Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin

Re: Torque specs for the rear axle

#11

Post by Pantony » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:07 am

Ok dragpipe heres my take; Who said you should give it up, not me. I'm trying to tell you my opinion as easy as you can keep, and maintain and run the bike, so you can enjoy it. Believe it or not a lot of Harley dealers still have a lot of parts for these old bike on the shelf, what they don't have you can order and pretty much bolt right on and not have to fabricate anything, engineer anything, or break anything that wasn't designed to the job you want it to. Is that disc brake going to do anything to the stress capabilities of that 53 year old frame? Who knows, it's easy to say "ah it's just a back brake" but then you have to think well in order for me to make that brake setup work I'll have to cut this and weld on that and then it will fit" (weakens the frame unless you stress relieve it) and even then it may bind the axle because your spacers weren't right, or if you get it to fit the bike may dog-track because your spacers fit and everything tightens up ok and now your front and rear wheels are out of line. Your back brake is only 10% of your stopping power anyway. Your front brake is where you need to pay attention to, make sure all that is up there is up to par, thats what will or will not stop your bike in a hurry. My advice, yes take all that disk brake stuff off and put the original brakes back on, then get the right spacers and axle parts and after you bolt all that on it will all line up, you will be able to square up your wheels and nothing will bind up. You won't have to fabricate anything and it will work just fine for you. Fourthgears got a conversion you can use to convert to the newr style Timkens (off the shelf part) that are better bearings, they are available and will not alter the appearance of your bike and you won't have to fabricate anything. The CV carb, sure run it, a lot of guys on here have them theres nothing wrong with that, I might try one too but to tell ya the truth I cut my teeth all summer long getting my 48 to run as nice as it does and now I'm a little uneasy about starting that all over again when I have it running so well. If your 12 volt system runs alright then by all means use it. My thinking on this is (and don't get offened guys) but hey it runs a coil and some lightbulbs, thats it, it doesn't start the bike, theres plenty of juice for the lights on it and a coil, before I started making parts for a certain "Motor Co." here in Milwaukee I worked for a battery outfit repairing forklift batteries and yes selling some car and bike batteries. And you know who I would count on seeing every spring? All those guys with bikes who put Polaris ATV 12 volt batteries (thats what fits in there buy the way) in there horseshoe oil tank battery trays compartments. That tank of mine runs over 200 degrees in the summer, thats a lot to ask of a battery that has less than half the acid capacity of the original 6 volt. And that 6 volt so far has run just fine for me, but yours may have no problems. All my statements leads to this, I'm not nor was I in any way offended or tryed to offend you, I'm and we are trying to help you by telling you all our experiences and troubles so maybe you wouldn't have so many as we have. the best way to do this in my mine is to try and keep things (bikes) as simple, albeit prehistoric, as possible. I apologize if I offended anyone and I hope theres more everyone here can share with you that will in the future keep you one the road where running and old bike can be and is fun, and not kneeling next to it all the time fixing it.

mbskeam
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Re: Torque specs for the rear axle

#12

Post by mbskeam » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:46 am

uuummmm........

ya never said what type of hub do you have....
my book for timken type bearings says.........60-65 on the rear axle nut, this is for a 99 RG but it is the same bearing since it was changed in the early 70's till 99.

ya it kinda funny how AFTER we get the bike do we find all those wrong year parts......LOL

run what ya got, mine was missin so many parts that it would have been easier and cheaper to keep it a chop, ain't no wrong year parts then.....


mbskeam

57pan
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Re: Torque specs for the rear axle

#13

Post by 57pan » Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:47 am

Nov 3, 2006, 1:05am, fourthgear wrote:
I have the conversion spools for timkin bearings , made to look like a star hub , including the star bolted on them and had to get a whole diff. axle and spacer to set it up for my drum brake.

fourthgear, are those the tapered bearing hubs that they sell in the J&P catalog? Or are they something that you had custom made? Just curious because I just had my star hubs converted to tapered bearings by Star Hub Pros and did not have to change any axles or spacers to use them with the original drum brakes.

fourthgear
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Re: Torque specs for the rear axle

#14

Post by fourthgear » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:46 pm

Yep, JP's , not sure what price , but as things go it was not that bad and I can get new bearings and seals ,no problem.

dragpipe
Posts: 41
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Location: canada

Re: Torque specs for the rear axle

#15

Post by dragpipe » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:22 pm

all right,
I understand what you mean now. I'll tell you now,...you and everyone else here knows 100 times more than I do about pans. I have loved and dreamed harleys since my dad sold his when I was 5. I bought an ironhead at 29 when I got my license and life back on track.(had a shitty 750 shadow I rode for years with no nothing) My dad said he'd disown me but thats another story...I had thousands piled up in fines and insurance was way beyond my income.
Anyway met my future wife,got trapped, yadayada...paid off fines on a huge WEEKLY payment, begged and pleaded for my license back and at 29 I was back on track.
My point is that I bought an old beat up sporty. I have never previously touched a wrench on a Harley and knew all of nothing about it. I bought a manual and began taking it apart..
1 year later I was living my dream.(I left alot out!) Now I got it looking pretty cool and theres not much else I want to do to it in terms of appearance. It runs strong, and starts on the second kick , ...but like them all it needs constant maintenance.
Fast forward a few years and I come to the realization Im on a "girls bike".haha.
I'd like to see any girl start it.
I bought an old pan that wasnt running and wasn't completely built. This bike is almost 20 years older than me. I know (knew) basically all of nothing about this bike(mechanically) and I could have very easily bought the push button, warranted, maintenance free evo that was sitting beside it! I'd rather wrench on this bike for years, get to know it inside out, learn everything about it,before it even gets back in the wind than hop on a new one.
Ive learned more just reading you guys talking back and forth than all those years of reading articles and looking at pictures!
We just moved here and Im finally getting the house settled so the wife can mellow out now while im wrenching.Im taking the wheel off now to investigate. I was under the assumption that everything was there, proper hub bearings, spacers ect. so now Im not sure what Im dealing with. I trusted and still do, the dude I bought it from. He told me it is what it is. haha
so whatever I run into is ok with me.
Its a 53 hardtail and came to me, with that brake set-up. I would rather have stock everything but I dont. I figured if the set-up works like I was assured it would, I would have more stopping power in the rear. My sporty has drum rear and I can never get the stopping power strong enough. I like to be able, IF I WANT, to lock them up. I know its something like 90% front brake and I ride using 90% but sometimes when you need to brake in an emergency, some situations (rain)I'd rather use the rear and skid out of it.
If however this set-up turns out to be a pain, I am not against going back to drum...so I may be looking in the future.
I am also now considering what you said about the battery and i think it makes sense...but mine was converted and alot of other guys are too,...so now I'm wondering why and what are the advantages?

To all who wrote, I apologize for the lack of wrenching going on here and I am going out now to do just that. Its winter here now and Im one of the unfortunate people who live with snow so I guess I have a few months to get it back to life. Ill keep you posted on what I find and thanks for everyones help!

pantony, believe me, I'd rather have an all-original 53 but I don't.she is what she is. Lets just get her out on the road where she belongs and worry about the looks later.
If I remember right you had a 48? I like to see pics of that. is it all original? sounds pretty nice!
There arnt very many people as young as I who appreciate these old machines and love them for all theyre problems. It makes you wonder where these bikes will be in another 50 years.

Also, can anyone tell me why if the company started in 1903, sold the first production bike in1903, why is the 55 pan the 50th anniversary model?

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