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Hard starting when warm

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Hauula Pan
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Hard starting when warm

#1

Post by Hauula Pan » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:33 am

I have 2 questions, 1st what is the correct point & plug gaps for a 1952 FL running 6 volt system? I have points @ .022 and plugs @ .025 correct or no? 2nd She always fires right up cold, just retard the timing, give a couple of primer squirts with the throttle and 2 or 3 kicks with ign. off, then ign. on & 1 kick starts right up. Advance the timing & I'm off to the races. If I turn it off and don't touch anything just give it 1 kick it will usually fire back up. But if I don't catch it on that 1st kick she's dead as a stone and nothing will get it to fire. It is like there is no spark at all, even though there is a spark. I can give it gas, move the timing, even a squirt of starting fluid, and still nothing, just absolutely dead. I have to wait for it to completely cool down and then do the cold start procedure again? Any ideas why It will fire just that one time when warm and if I don't catch it on that 1st kick be dead like that??



panhead_kicker
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Re: Hard starting when warm

#2

Post by panhead_kicker » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:08 am

Hauula Pan,
Sounds like my S&S Super E. What kind of carb you running?

NYFB
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Re: Hard starting when warm

#3

Post by NYFB » Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:12 am

Mine acts this way with a Super E, too. I've found that if it doesn't start right up, I can get it to start if I clear it out like it's flooded. I kick it through full throttle, no ignition a handful of times. Flip the ignition back on and it fires right up. My theory is that the air in the carb / intake / combustion chamber gets hot, giving you a rich condition while it sits, then the cool air charge gets it goin. That's how mine works out, at least.

Hauula Pan
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Re: Hard starting when warm

#4

Post by Hauula Pan » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:00 am

Panhead_kicker & NYFB, I am in fact running an S&S Super E. I changed to low compression pistons, an Andrews #1 cam to go with the pistons & the S&S Super E, and that's when the trouble began. Always started fine with the stock pistons, cam & Linkert. Makes sense because I think the S&S is a bit too much carb. as I have to run it full lean. Backing the mixture out even 3/4 turn will make her start to run rough. I have it set at only 1/4 turn from full closed. NYFB when you kick it over after clearing are you retarding the timer or leaving it advanced? and are you keeping the throttle full open, closed, or partly cracked. It sounds like you have a system down that works & I'd like to try it. Thanks.

Panhead Ed
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Re: Hard starting when warm

#5

Post by Panhead Ed » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:53 pm

try turning your accelerator pump off, this will make it more like a linkert, panheads dont care much for the extra fuel ,, follow your old linkert starting procedure and see how that works .."primeing ,& clearing etc." if it makes any difference one way or the other you'll be able to determine how much acc. pump you can add back into the mix...
the adjustable pump is a cool thing to have , super E's are good carbs Iv installed them on many models and like them very much , dont be affraid to turn the pump off if you dont need it dont use it, whatever makes your ride more user friendly is what s important...

Cotten
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Re: Hard starting when warm

#6

Post by Cotten » Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:58 pm

Panhead Ed wrote:try turning your accelerator pump off, this will make it more like a linkert, panheads dont care much for the extra fuel ,, follow your old linkert starting procedure and see how that works .."primeing ,& clearing etc." if it makes any difference one way or the other you'll be able to determine how much acc. pump you can add back into the mix...
the adjustable pump is a cool thing to have , super E's are good carbs Iv installed them on many models and like them very much , dont be affraid to turn the pump off if you dont need it dont use it, whatever makes your ride more user friendly is what s important...
Don't look now but,
That extra shot of fuel for rapid acceleration is critical.
Get ready for some good motor knocking without it.

Linkerts also provide a metered extra dose upon demand of sudden acceleration.

But its an emulsion, not raw gas!

....Cotten

Ohio-Rider
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Re: Hard starting when warm

#7

Post by Ohio-Rider » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:03 pm

Your story of hard starting when warm with the S&S is word for word what I have been experiencing with mine right down to the part about if it doesn’t start on the first kick when warm, then I’m screwed. If anyone comes up with a sure fire method for starting a warm panhead with an S&S they would become a instant hero to a lot of people.

I have tried everything under the sun and have yet to find a definite solution to this starting problem using an S&S. The best procedure for mine has been that when it fails to start on the first kick when warm, I leave the key on and lift the enricher half way and set the timing to about its mid point, then with out touching the accelerator I give it a kick. Sometimes that does it and others times not.

I started collecting parts to return mine back to the Linkert and am hoping it will help because I’m convinced that is where my problem lies. You have pressure tested your manifold for leaks right?

PanPal
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Re: Hard starting when warm

#8

Post by PanPal » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:22 pm

I had the same problem with the S&S on mine. I had the best luck hot not touching the thottle but using the enrichener and timing full advance, but she kicked back a lot. Went with a CV and it has been easier to start cold or hot and uses less gas. I would put a Linkert back on if I had one.

Hauula Pan
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Re: Hard starting when warm

#9

Post by Hauula Pan » Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:04 pm

Well I see now that this appears to be a very common thing with the Super E, and I have a lot of company having the same exact problem. I Really appreciate the replies and will try them & see if I can find one that works for my bike. As always with these old pans finding exactly what your's likes & doesn't like involves a lot of trial & error. I also got told by someone at my local hangout that there is a phenolic spacer that is supposed to help. I think I even have one laying around somewhere from years ago when I ran a few different carbs on some other bikes. I'll have to see if I can find it. I just got my old Linkert back, it was in a box of parts at my ex-wife's, so I'm going to rebuild it and go back to running it. But in the mean time I sure hope I can find the sweet spot that will work with the S&S. I just finished putting this bike back together after having it in pieces for several years and I think a couple of changes I made were wrong decisions. Like the low compression pistons, Andrews #1 cam, and the S&S. I'm convinced now that I should have just left everything stock. Oh well live & learn. I just really hate to have to tear into it again so soon after just getting it up & running. Well sort of running that is. Here is a pic. of 9 months of work. Thanks again for the suggestions.
right side.jpg
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Hauula Pan
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Re: Hard starting when warm

#10

Post by Hauula Pan » Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:06 pm

Oh hey by the way how about the 1st question about point & plug gaps. Is .022 for points & .025 for plugs correct??

Bosheff
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Re: Hard starting when warm

#11

Post by Bosheff » Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:36 pm

I don't really understand why lowerin yer compression would cause a hard start condition. As far as the cam, I ain't got a clue bout that. From what I've seen with S&S carbs and kick startin, they don't seem work well together, or maybe it's just the operators. From what I've seen, S&S carbs are usually jetted to fat, and the enrichener has a tendancy to foul plugs if left on once the engine is running. I know guys that run S&S carbs sure do seem to use a lot of spark plugs. This seems to be because they start em cold and leave the enrichener on. These are just things I've noticed over the years. I prefer an SU. Easy startin, easy initial set-up, and excellent fuel mileage. Ya gotta keep em clean inside though. Don't use the stock junk air filter. When makin changes to an engine, it is advisable to make one change at a time. You must maintain a baseline, so to speak. This way you can always go back to what you know works, as well as have a reference point to start from. Remember external changes are easier and cheaper to deal with than internal modifications....bosheff

panz4ever
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Re: Hard starting when warm

#12

Post by panz4ever » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:45 pm

The cam and compression set up should make it easier to start not harder. With that I do not think it is in the engine modification. I am not scientific enough to know what a phenolic spacer is, but do you mean the extra thick spacer that runs between the carb body and intake manifold. Added on e to my brother-in-laws 50 chopped and it solved hot start problems. Cold/hot his is a 3-kicker. BTW S&S B carb. His is still set up w/ manual timer and not auto-advance.

Robert Luland
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Re: Hard starting when warm

#13

Post by Robert Luland » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:08 pm

I got though the same thing running a Su on my 60. Lite stroker 84cu. When it's cold the bike starts on the first or second kick. Same problem though went its hot. If I don't get it on the first kick? I'm screwed. Timings on the money, no manifold leaks, magneto and a mild cam. The SU has its pluses. Much better gas mileage and off the line, a night and day difference from the Linkert. Last year I stalled it at a stop sign. Twenty five minutes to get her going again. I got a couple of M74's in the storage room an rebuild I will because I'm not going though another summer of this crap. These days at my age I'm in no hurry to go anywhere. I really hope switching solves the problem. Bob L

fourthgear
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Re: Hard starting when warm

#14

Post by fourthgear » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:25 am

I have not ran an S&S for a while ,since I found CV 40's, but when you miss that start up after mtr is warm , I do as was said by one of the above posts & that is put the throttle Wide open & kick till you get that muffled sound or coughing of it burning the fuel ( some times you can get her to start if your quike on the throttle), then put the throttle back to idle and try normal warm start procedure.
I agree the S&S is over jetted for most Pan's , they are set up from the get go for cubes & H L cams. One other thing is ,it could all be about timing. I have seen a lot of worn out circuit breakers lately & when they are worn out , its hard to keep any consistant timing adj..

Ohio-Rider
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Re: Hard starting when warm

#15

Post by Ohio-Rider » Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:27 pm

Robert Luland wrote: I got a couple of M74’s in the storage room an rebuild I will because I’m not going though another summer of this crap. These days at my age I’m in no hurry to go anywhere. I really hope switching solves the problem. Bob L

Exactly my feelings as well Bob. I love riding my panhead but not that much. I got lucky and scored a pristine M74B from one of the members here last year and as soon as 45Parts Depot gets moved into their new location I can get those last few parts I need to do the swap. We better stop bad mouthing the Super E's or we'll never be able to sell them on e-bay. :lol: -Steve

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