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needle bearing fragment in oil

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socalrider
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needle bearing fragment in oil

#1

Post by socalrider » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:11 pm

got 250 easy miles on my 65 flh.breaking it in. changed the oil today and found a very small piece of needle bearing in the filter. man does that suck! luckily i caught it before more damage was done. the bike has been running great. i would have never known had i not changed the oil. good thing i have my old reliable beater amf shovelhead to ride while i open up the gear case.anything else i should look at besides the cam inner bearing and tappet rollers?
gracias,
arnulfo



Robert Luland
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Re: needle bearing fragment in oil

#2

Post by Robert Luland » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:20 pm

When you say small, how small, I can't beleave it made it though the pump? Are you sure this could not be a left over? Bob L

Cotten
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Re: needle bearing fragment in oil

#3

Post by Cotten » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:06 am

Arnulfo!

That's tragic.
What brand of rollers shattered so soon?

Leave no stone unturned,

....Cotten

socalrider
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Re: needle bearing fragment in oil

#4

Post by socalrider » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:48 am

robert, its about 1/16" long and half the diameter of the needle bearing. cotton, dont know the brand. i did not rebuild the motor. i need to get the tools and knowledge to do this work myself. cant trust anyone to do it right.
arnulfo

kitabel
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Re: needle bearing fragment in oil

#5

Post by kitabel » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:35 am

Easiest check: if it's a tappet roller, that pushrod won't take a normal adjustment.
When you set it, rotate the motor a few times, the lash will be completely off.
If it is a tappet I'd replace all of them, unless you can find a specific reason.

socalrider
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Re: needle bearing fragment in oil

#6

Post by socalrider » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:27 am

kitabel,
would that also apply with hydraulic lifters?
gracias,
arnulfo

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Re: needle bearing fragment in oil

#7

Post by hogboy52 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:39 am

A Bit of a broken engine internal part traveling through the sump, through the very fine mesh filter screen, and through the pump gears without shearing the woodruff keys hardly seems possible. A bit may have got in there during assembly?

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Re: needle bearing fragment in oil

#8

Post by Cotten » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:23 pm

Arnulfo!

I strongly urge you to visually inspect each of your tappet rollers.
The end of one could have 'crystalllized' off, leaving the rest of it in place, for the short term anyway.

The cam chest should be washed out for inspection, and a magnet inserted into where ever a fragment may hide.

The screen is only a "bubble-buster" and does not protect the pump.
All to often, such fragments enter the breather gear, scoring the bore, so it must be removed for inspection as well.

If your rollers do not appear to have been replaced, it was not a thorough overhaul!

I had a customer's machine frag a fresh roller after 3000 miles (two decades ago...), and they were un-marked, with flat-edged needles.
I believe they were Torringtons!
Today, I suggest imports with "BRVI" on the wheel, with round-ended rollers, as were marketed by Crane, etc.

Leave no stone unturned in your search,
and as with any fresh overhaul, please scrub out the tank!

....Cotten

socalrider
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Re: needle bearing fragment in oil

#9

Post by socalrider » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:22 am

Got into gear case and almost all is well.Cam bearing is a "TORRINGTON" and all needles intact , none broken. Lifters are "JIMS BIG AXEL GLIDE",new. The lifters are a new type . The tappet and hydraulic lifter are not 2 separate pieces but are assembled as one. The needle bearings in the rollers are all fine. Im going to check the bearing on the primary cover that the bendix gear shaft goes into.The builder did not install a separater and screen under the breather. I dont know if it was intentional or not. Any ideas from anyone as to why he may have left these parts out ?I am going to put them in when I reassemble the gear case. The cam is a "ANDREWS" "j" grind. I did notice some slight bluing on the lobes and a very small dot like area where a piece of the hardened surface came off of one of the lobes.The cam was not new when the motor was rebuilt. Im going to replace the cam also.Trying to decide what brand to go with. I want American made with stock specs. How are them Leinwebers? Many thanks to all who helped with your responses.
arnulfo

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Re: needle bearing fragment in oil

#10

Post by knuckleheadmotor » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:32 am

Arnulfo, if I may I will put a couple of cents worth of information or thoughts on your dilemma. I agree with Cotton on the screen issue, all it really does is help separate the oil from the air in the separator cavity for the breather below the breather gear. Harley went away from these parts with the cone motor, although it made sense with the extreme oil carry over issues that the late 80s and early 90s Evos had. Harley finally came up with a plastic oil separator piece that is slid into the tube in the cam cover on the Evos (does the same thing). They still put it into all 84 thru 1992 Reman engines. I have a question on how you are evaluating the rollers on the "Big Axle" lifters, you can't see any of them if my memory serves me correct. A side note here I have never seen a small axle 18524-29 roller break the axle in a street engine but have seen many of big axle lifters with the tiny rollers go away in stock and nearly stock motors. As was stated by others CLEAN, and RE CLEAN all of the areas you can get to, until you find where it came from you will always wonder "when its gonna go". As far as the cam goes make sure that you have adequate valve travel in the heads for what ever you choose, many a wrench that is good with a Twinkie and Evo and can get thru a Shovel has had his butt kicked when working on a Pan and putting a cam in it, Knucks and Pans need diligence with checking all clearances when putting cams in them. With stock springs and stock valve stem protrusion a J grind cam with .425 lift at the valve is about all that will fit with out running into problems a A grind with .470 lift in a Pan will probably break rockers or bend pushrods in short order unless the added lift is adjusted for. If you sink the valves in deep you can run the upper valve spring collars into the tins with out care taken to modify the profile of them, check the valve springs and see if the upper wire is ground with a taper around the outer diameter of that last wrap, not left flat ended like a Shovel. Hope that this makes sense and helps Ya. Knuckleheadmotor

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Re: needle bearing fragment in oil

#11

Post by Cotten » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:59 pm

Arnulfo!

Have you mic'd the fragment for a diameter?

....Cotten

socalrider
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Re: needle bearing fragment in oil

#12

Post by socalrider » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:10 am

knuckleheadmotor,thanks for the advice it all made perfect sense.i checked the rollers on the tappet/lifters just by rolling them while feeling for any binding and looking at the sides of the wheels for any kind of scratching or gouging that may have been caused by the fragment working its way out from between the wheel and axel.there was neither scratches nor gouges on any of the wheels, they all seemed to roll smoothly with no binding.short of taking all the wheels off, i cant see any other way of checking them.im thinking i may replace the with new guildes and hydraulic lifters, the factory type that are 2 separate pieces. i did mic the fragment as cotton suggested and it miked to.071", which does rule out the inner cam bearing. im replacing the bearing anyhow. at that size (.071'), im thinking that maybe it was a piece that was left over from the last assembly as hogboy52 suggested. as i look deeper into the gear case i find more things that the builder overlooked. the cam cover cam bushing is WAY out of spec. its at a .0045 fit. also , one of the tappet/lifters binds in the bore. all this causes me to worry about what else may not be right. i am looking to get a cam that is as close to factory specs as possible. the andrews j cam seemed to work fine but if i can get something that is closer to factory specs as far as lift and duration, i would rather go with that. is there anywhere that i can get the specs for a factory 1965 flh cam? for now going to order a new cam bushing, and reamer then try to do the repair myself. i have a spare 1963 cam side case half to do a line ream on the bushing. saw a photo that i believe cotton posted that showed that being done .
arnulfo

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Re: needle bearing fragment in oil

#13

Post by Cotten » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:01 pm

Arnulfo!

Tappet roller needles from a '55 on my bench are only .062".
But some Torringtons in inventory (dated 11-18-98) mic at .077"!
Their ends are also rounded, so I am doing an about face on my previous concerns about the brand.
Bigger IS better.

I am also reminded that the preservative grease, sometimes callsed "slush", should be washed out of tapper rollers and needle bearing after installation, and re-lubed.

To ream the cam cover bushing, it takes a pilot bushing that fits your needle bearing, or its bore, perfectly.
Although I am equipt to ream them, I scrape them 95% of the time.

...Cotten

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Re: needle bearing fragment in oil

#14

Post by Bosheff » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:41 pm

How can it be possible to line hone the cam cover bushing properly with any case half other than the one yer gonna be usin for final assembly?....bosheff

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Re: needle bearing fragment in oil

#15

Post by Cotten » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:25 am

Bosheff!

You just ignore "proper" for the sake of "practical".

Using another case has worked fine for me!

(But I was rough-reaming, not honeing.
It is difficult to pilot a hone, y'know.)

Which is why I ultimately rely on inking and scrapeing:
Can't get any better!

...Cotten

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