Panhead rear header pipe glowing orange

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Re: Panhead rear header pipe glowing orange

#31

Post by Bosheff » Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:55 pm

How many times do ya gotta kick to get a pan runnin with the timing 180 out? I would think it would take at least 10,000 kicks, and when it finally did start, it would pretty much be by shear luck, and it wouldn"t run worth a damn. If by chance you could keep it runnin long enough to turn the pipes cherry, I would be surprised....bosheff



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Re: Panhead rear header pipe glowing orange

#32

Post by JohnnysCustomPaint » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:24 pm

Bosheff wrote:How many times do ya gotta kick to get a pan runnin with the timing 180 out? I would think it would take at least 10,000 kicks, and when it finally did start, it would pretty much be by shear luck, and it wouldn"t run worth a damn. If by chance you could keep it runnin long enough to turn the pipes cherry, I would be surprised....bosheff
I was kinda hoping that is is 180 out, but by what you are saying, it likely is not.
I am in the process of figuring that out right now.
I have the flywheel mark centered in the hole, the front intake all the way down and the points fiber is in the middle of the "large" lobe.
But I could not confirm that the pushrod had "just came down", so I am back on that.
Pretty hard to do by yourself.
The front piston is about one half inch farther down in the cylinder than the rear one.
That leads me to think it is NOT 180 out.

I will post more info in 30 minutes or so.

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Re: Panhead rear header pipe glowing orange

#33

Post by RUBONE » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:50 pm

The narrow lobe is the one for the front cylinder, not the fat one!
Robbie

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Re: Panhead rear header pipe glowing orange

#34

Post by JohnnysCustomPaint » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:20 pm

RUBONE wrote:The narrow lobe is the one for the front cylinder, not the fat one!
Robbie
Understood, that position was what I had thought was the culprit.
I must have missed the flywheel mark the first rollover, pretty hard for one guy to watch all of it and be completely sure, at least for me.
Now it seems to have been timed correctly as far as the "180 out" idea, it appears it is not, nor was 180 out.
I am going to time it with a test light and see what happens.
If the pipes don't get red/orange, then I will stobe it like Cotten advised.
(I don't have a clear plug yet)
Last edited by JohnnysCustomPaint on Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Panhead rear header pipe glowing orange

#35

Post by JohnnysCustomPaint » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:26 pm

Panshovevo wrote:I should have explained that a rich mixture can cause a slow/late burn in the cylinder, which can continue to burn in the exhaust pipe, especially if there is a leak at the header pipe/cylinder head junction allowing fresh air to enter the pipe.

Do you have a known good coil to try? Coils can break down as they get hot.
How are the plug wires?
The wires seem to be OK and the coil is a new one, less than 20 miles.
It never seemed to give any problems, but could be now I suppose.
It is a "replica" of a 6 volt and is a 12 volt, bought from Antique Cycle Supply.
So I am guessing it is a V-Twin part, just repackaged like J&P does.

The plugs are/were a little oily from the oil put in the cylinders during assembly, mixed with some gasoline by the choking to get it started the first time.

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Re: Panhead rear header pipe glowing orange

#36

Post by Bigincher » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:06 pm

I've been following this thread, and reading with interest, but keeping my mouth shut. Until now, that is.... I can't help but wonder if the cam gear is pressed onto the end of the cam shaft, and if a degree wheel was used..........

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Re: Panhead rear header pipe glowing orange

#37

Post by JohnnysCustomPaint » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:23 pm

Bigincher wrote:I've been following this thread, and reading with interest, but keeping my mouth shut. Until now, that is.... I can't help but wonder if the cam gear is pressed onto the end of the cam shaft, and if a degree wheel was used..........
Stock cam and original to the bike.
This bike is truly a "survivor" and by estimates from the guy that sold it new, it "might" have 50 thousand miles on it.
I decided to have him rebuild it completely, even though he said it really only needed a top end job.
We put a set of S&S rods and he changed the valves (I think)
I put probably 5000 miles on it since then and it ran great.
Then it sat for about 4 years inside a step-van that was also parked inside a barn.
When I went and got, I decided to give it yet another facelift.
One thing led to another, it ended up getting the top end off and I noticed a very small rust spot in one of the cylinders that most everyone said would "hone" out.
That was tried by one independent shop with no good results.
I bought new 20 over pistons, had a motorcycle machine shop bore the jugs and fit the pistons.
The heads were dissassembled, masked all the gasket surfaces with duct tape and glass beaded the exterior.
Then I spot-tied the heads to a wood pallet and pressure washed them several times, air blowing them dry inside and out between washings to make sure no traces of glass beads were left.
I then inspected the heads, guides, etc for ANYTHING and found nothing wrong.
I then took each valve and lapped them in to see if there were any problems, none were noticed.
I then done the pallet washing again, with all the valves still in their own identifiable bag laying in my office.
I didn't want any chance of the lapping compound still being present.
Then I assembled them with "each and every" part going "exactly where it came from.

Then with some "assistance" from a guy that has been a HD tech with a local dealership, the engine was assembled.
I did catch a lot of crap about me being so meticulous about some of the stuff.
Don't get me wrong, the guy is not a hack by any means, he just thinks I was treating this old pan like a new high tech Ferrari or something.

Actually, when it was first started, he was here and made a minor adjustment on the low side needle, but it couldn't have been much more than a quarter turn
He then needed to go home.
I wanted to put the bike out away from the shop and let it warm up to operating temp (with a BIG fan in front of it) then shut it down and let it completly cool down, overnight is generally the way I do it.

So while it was setting there idling a little above idle I would gas it slightly every now and then.
Then I noticed the rear pipe was getting orange, the front also was by the evidence I now see, but at the time I thought it was just the back.
The front pipe is just as discolored as the rear, looking at it now.
I shut it down as soon as I saw the orange.

Next day I built the pressure test tool almost identical to what Cotten has pictures of.
Tried my damndest to get some soap bubbles but could not.
I even cranked the regulator up to 20PSI, still no bubbles.

I put the Linkert M-74B back on have all day today trying to prove to myself the timing is off, or 180 out as some have suggested.
I can't get that done either.
Cotten says "one tooth" off, it likely wouldn't even star, much less run.

It really did start fairly easy considering a new top end job, also having a squirt of motor oil into each cylinder right before we started it.
It has hydraulic lifters in now, however, ever since the first rebuild over 27 years a go, I was running the solid conversion deal.
The HD guy talked me into going back with the hydraulics, if that could make any difference.

Sorry for the long ass answer, but this does give everyone some insight on what the bike is.
Some will call it a "trailer queen", "show bike", etc.
It is one of the best looking and likely one of the lowest mile 59 around.

I will try to post some pictures of what I have done as well as some pics of the bike so no one will think this some old dog.
It is far from that, there is no telling how much I got in the thing, because money has never meant anything when it comes to this particular bike.

Sometimes I think they really do have a temper and this one is still pissed about having to be in that van for 4 years :mrgreen:

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Re: Panhead rear header pipe glowing orange

#38

Post by indianut » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:01 pm

Again...I'll bet the timing is Retarded!

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Re: Panhead rear header pipe glowing orange

#39

Post by JohnnysCustomPaint » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:34 am

indianut wrote:Again...I'll bet the timing is Retarded!
We are a "fixin to find out"

TEXAN kinda stickin out :mrgreen:

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Re: Panhead rear header pipe glowing orange

#40

Post by indianut » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:18 am

[quote
TEXAN kinda stickin out :mrgreen:[/quote]
I Heard that!

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Re: Panhead rear header pipe glowing orange

#41

Post by JohnnysCustomPaint » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:56 am

indianut wrote:[quote
TEXAN kinda stickin out :mrgreen:
I Heard that![/quote]

Where you at in Florida?
I am in Jacksonville myself.

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Re: Panhead rear header pipe glowing orange

#42

Post by steve_wood » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:39 am

Wait a minute....
Actually, when it was first started, he was here and made a minor adjustment on the low side needle, but it couldn't have been much more than a quarter turn
Since then, have you tried adjusting the low side? If he leaned it out too much, that would explain the cherry pipes.....

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Re: Panhead rear header pipe glowing orange

#43

Post by JohnnysCustomPaint » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:47 am

steve_wood wrote:Wait a minute....
Actually, when it was first started, he was here and made a minor adjustment on the low side needle, but it couldn't have been much more than a quarter turn
Since then, have you tried adjusting the low side? If he leaned it out too much, that would explain the cherry pipes.....
No I did not even think of that.
I can't imagine that small of an adjustment could make that much of a difference.
Thanks for the insight, I was planning on starting it up tonight, but it just didn't work out.
First thing in the morning andI will post the results.

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Re: Panhead rear header pipe glowing orange

#44

Post by Panhead Ed » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:16 pm

Good god !
put some more advance to it and move on ! if youv done got passed the dreaded vacume leak it cant be anything but slow timming......
If you know the cam hasnt been changed get on with it.Cams can be assembled with the gear out of time for what ever reason "fri. -mon. assembly factory worker not as drunk as the day befor" any number of reasons....
If your sittin there watchin them pipes glow orange you can get to a piont where you can see right into them ,,, yep they become translucent ,,, but you better not wait for that show cuz its gonna hit u in the wallet !
If you were close to me Id have you going free of charge just to end this painfull thread !

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Re: Panhead rear header pipe glowing orange

#45

Post by Scrap » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:37 am

Bosheff wrote:How many times do ya gotta kick to get a pan runnin with the timing 180 out? I would think it would take at least 10,000 kicks, and when it finally did start, it would pretty much be by shear luck, and it wouldn"t run worth a damn. If by chance you could keep it runnin long enough to turn the pipes cherry, I would be surprised....bosheff
I'm not suggesting you do, but try it yourself if don't believe it. I didn't take 10,000 kicks, it only felt that way. I never said it ran well, but run it did, and it doesn't take long to get the pipes red at the bend where they first exit the heads...

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