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'50 FL project

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Sarre
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:14 pm
Bikes: '50 panhead
Location: Netherlands

Re: '50 FL project

#16

Post by Sarre » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:52 pm

I'll take that in to consideration Rubone :mrgreen: .

Thanx Panpal for that info, couldn't find it via the website but should have googled better.

I've found this info on the clutch throw out bearing rods:

OEM # 37285-41 fits 41-64 Knucklehead and Panhead 13" long.
OEM # 37285-65 fits 65-69 Shovelhead 13.250" long.
OEM # 37285-70 fits 70 -E75 Shovelheads 13.9375 long.
OEM # 37285-75 fits L75-84 4-Speed Shovelhead 14.0625 long.

So there is definitely a difference in length. My current rod measures ±13.45" and I am unsure which should fit my trans case (it's not between these numbers..). So I'll email Cal for the info.

Cleaned up the kickstart case/cover, ordered some new parts, gasket + oil and its ready to be installed. Decided to use motor oil 50/60W for the trans.



Sarre
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:14 pm
Bikes: '50 panhead
Location: Netherlands

Re: '50 FL project

#17

Post by Sarre » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:20 pm

By the way, does it matter that the new starter crank gears only have a stud on the transmission case side? The old one that I removed has a stopper stud on both sides, like in the manual:

Image

Sarre
Posts: 21
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Bikes: '50 panhead
Location: Netherlands

Re: '50 FL project

#18

Post by Sarre » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:12 pm

I guess not, installed the starter crank gear and it works, just a bit less easy to install.

Haven't been able to get my hands on the original clutch throw out bearing rod, missed out on two auctions.
I've put a heavy duty kickstart kit on my list for later since there is some play on the kickstart shaft-bushings, and will replace the clutch throw out bearing rod at the same time.

- Identified the heads; they are from '48.
- Identified the cylinders as FL.
- Removed the skit plate and found out the belly numbers actually match.
- Belly numbers start with 249, 2 means usually a 61 and 1 a 74, 49 is the year which doesn't match the VIN which starts with 50FL15XX.
- Identified cover as a later style (no diamond).

The manifold leaks, that's for sure. There are no casting numbers in the manifold, and it is chromed, any tips on a good replacement part?

The rear intake has some damage but I think it's minor and has no influence, or am I wrong? See image.
Image

There is also some damage to the casing at the bottom, I'm thinking about a repair with something like JB weld:
Image

And.. I got lucky:

Image

Bigincher
Posts: 2830
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Bikes: 1941/59 EL
1952 FL
1977 FLH
1994 Fatboy

Re: '50 FL project

#19

Post by Bigincher » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:23 pm

Your VIN is a low '50 number, so 49 belly numbers would be completely appropriate.
The heads may have 48 casting numbers, the date code may be something other than 48. 1948 heads have unique characteristics which perhaps Eric (Speeding Big Twin) will elaborate on.
I think JB-Weld is an acceptable patch for the damaged case. Obviously, a total teardown would be needed to weld it up, and I doubt that's in the cards right now.
I even stayed away from that auction on the throwout bearing and clutch rod, knowing you'd probably be going for it. :wink:
Keep looking, they show up pretty regularly.

Sarre
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:14 pm
Bikes: '50 panhead
Location: Netherlands

Re: '50 FL project

#20

Post by Sarre » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:34 am

I was already hoping on that BigIncher, further, found this info on "HDforums" from "Speeding Big Twin":
"at the start of Panhead belly numbers H-D used at least three different code numbers: 1, 2 and 3. It normally depends on model year, and for 1950 Pans it even depends on how far into production the cases were because two code numbers (3 and 1) were used that year (1950). For 1948 model Panheads, the code number is usually 1, regardless of E/EL/F/FL. "

So I don't worry about the "2" that much either.

I'm leaning towards a teardown, the further I get in to the project. I see to much 'monkey' wrenching which needs to be fixed, and oil leaking... I am starting to doubt whether the engine was built up correctly... Currently got a CB750 SOHC on the workbench, which is almost completely rebuild, will finish that first before deciding.

But first I want to identify & fix the manifold leak, I ordered a big wrench (2-1/8") for that and will make an adapter for the compressor to pressure test it. (Don't know how it's running if I can't get it to idle correctly).

I'll photograph the heads tomorrow.

- Found out that the inner springs were missing from the springer. Ordered reproduction.
- Found out that there is a linkert manifold - to S&S carb adapter without any casting on it and it looks self fab.
- The frame is an original wishbone for that year, based on; has flattening for the 'horn' up front (downtubes) and has a slight bend on the left side near the 2nd chain. Some tabs have been removed; including gastank tabs, bracket for toolbox, tabs for the sidecar, and possibly more. But the original tabs for the floor boards are there so I got my hands on a very nice OEM set; hoping to receive them this week.
- The rear fender and the springer top nuts have gold (colored) solder on them, pretty weird IMO.

+Q is a chrome timing cover original? I don't think so but just checking...

RUBONE
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Re: '50 FL project

#21

Post by RUBONE » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:48 am

+Q is a chrome timing cover original? I don't think so but just checking...
Sorry, but never...

Speeding Big Twin
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Location: Western Australia

Re: '50 FL project

#22

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:36 am

Sarre, welcome to the forum. Which of Palmer’s 37–64 books do you have, a first edition (there were three different ones) or a second edition (at least two so far)?

You mentioned the cylinders were FL. Do they have date codes?

Can you post a clearer photo of your BNs please. And a partial photo of your VIN.

Are 7s stamped on top of the cases near the rear engine mounting bolt holes? (At least two types of 7 were used for 1949–50 models.)
Eric

Sarre
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Location: Netherlands

Re: '50 FL project

#23

Post by Sarre » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:36 pm

Thanks for the quick reply Rubone.

Hi Eric, I guess I got a first edition of Palmer's; 1994 with a red 1947 knucklehead on the cover and a blue sky, the knuckle's front wheel was way closer to the camera than its rear wheel.

BN's & Vin:

Image

Image

There are no date codes on the bottom of the cylinder, only a big F and R (facing each other on the intake side). I based the identification on the length of the cylinders (5.33" > 74ci)
I have not been able to find those 7's, is this the right location?

Image

Details of the heads:

Front L
Image

Front R
Image
Image

Rear L
Image

Rear R
Image
Image

Speeding Big Twin
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Re: '50 FL project

#24

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:50 am

Thanks for the photos. The VIN isn’t consistent with factory stamping. Notice your 0 is rounded but in my photo the 0 is oblong-shaped. Notice your 1 has shorter serifs than the 1 in my picture. Compare the upper half of your 5s with my example and compare the horizontal strokes of the F.

50 FL +1++.jpg
50 FL +1++.jpg (77.18 KiB) Viewed 841 times

Not sure about your VIN boss. Its bottom edge doesn’t seem to flow smoothly into the rest of the case like my example does.

Hard to be sure about your belly numbers (BNs) but I can’t see anything really wrong with the characters at this stage. Notice two different round-back 9s but that is normal for 1949. Notice the sequence portion of your R-H BN may have originally been 10590 but is now 10591. This may have been a factory correction (overstamp) to match it with the left BN and I’ve seen many other examples of it.

You may have read in Palmer’s book where he said code 1 = 74ci OHV and code 2 = 61ci OHV. He was wrong but he addressed this in 2014 in his 37–64 second edition (SE) although the SE still contains problems concerning BNs and VINs. Anyway, code 2 was used for 1949 Panhead BNs regardless of 74 or 61. (There may have been a few exceptions to this apparent rule and I continue to investigate the possibility.)

Yes you found the right location for 7s on top of the cases. FLs and certain other 74ci OHVs had them. But because your cases don’t have them, and because I can’t see any sign they were removed, your cases may have originally been used for a 61ci OHV and probably a 49 model, not a 50 model.

Not all H-D Panhead cylinders have date codes but if yours only have F and R then it sounds like they are AM. As for their height, l’d have to check but maybe someone else can comment on that.

On the front head, casting number 119 48 was used for 1948–49 models. Date code looks like I 8? Or could it be L 8? Can you confirm please.
On the rear head, casting number 119 482 was used for 1948–49 models. Hard to read the date code.

Getting back to Palmer's books, my copy of the first edition (FE) has a red Knuckle on the front and the cost on the back cover is $39.95US. Apparently mine is the third version. I think the first version cost $26.95 and the second cost $29.95. After the first version was printed in 1994, Palmer submitted six hundred (600) pages to the publisher for correction but only 200 were addressed for the second version. Bruce tried to have the remaining 400 problems fixed for the third version but I’m told the publisher ignored him. This of course means that my copy, and maybe yours too, contains 400 mistakes, according to some people. But I think it contains way more than 400 errors, judging by my own research.

Some errors from the third version of the FE went straight into the 2014 SE. Some were corrected for the January 2015 revision but please note that it too has many errors.
Eric

Sarre
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Location: Netherlands

Re: '50 FL project

#25

Post by Sarre » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:47 pm

Hey guys!

Thanks Eric for the extensive reply. I agree that your vin looks slightly different. But you do think these are original HD cases? Not Cal's?

AM cylinders = ?= AMF? so shovelhead?

Date codes:
Front: L 8
Rear: o 8 ? > very difficult to read!

Palmer Book prices was $29,95 so first ED, I'll keep my eyes open for a later ED!

Alright that springer is in bad shape, I completely dismantled it:

+ castings:
+ Front legs: 13 or something like that on the front legs middle part frontside, rear reads something like IC 20TF and a A in a square
+ Rear legs: 15 with a square and things inside, and XC-15A and the tab for the brake rod has an L stamped in it.
+ Rockers: SC-3A 7 and a circle with a thingy // SC-4A 12 and a circle with a thingy
- According to Palmer these rockers are from a BT 1931-1948

Any more specific than a 45 springer?

- Bottom rockers are totally jammed.... No movement at all.
- Both front and rear legs are bent + the rods.
- Wheel alignment was way off towards the brake drum. (see photo) Why would that be? Its a star hub..
- Wheel was skewed in when assembled, a few degrees tilted.
- A lot of ball bearings were missing...
- No bottom shim/dustring or bearing race guard (so the bearing race was in contact with the fork) > can't find a partnumber! 48350-39 is for the race with guard.
- I measured the top frame bearing cup ID, was 1.051" > comes very close to the set from V-Twin, which would be logical with a 45 springer in a BT frame.

http://www.vtwinmfg.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... 900_142901

So.. I'm looking for a specialist in the Netherlands to straighten the springer legs and upper rods, and a specialist to rebuild the rockers, or good after market rockers. (since I can't execute these tasks in my workshop.. :cry: )

Image

Image

panhead
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Re: '50 FL project

#26

Post by panhead » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:33 am

AM = after market.

Try Daan Smallenburg in Steggerda for your Springer.

Speeding Big Twin
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Location: Western Australia

Re: '50 FL project

#27

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:25 pm

The crankcases appear to be H-D. Each case may have a casting number and date code but they’re on the inside.

As panhead said, AM = aftermarket. Cylinders may be meant to be used for a Pan but I don’t know who the maker is. On your cylinders, F and R may just indicate front and rear. They wouldn’t be meant for a Shovelhead because Shovels use different cylinders—for example, not all the holes on top of a Shovel cylinder are positioned the same as with a Pan cylinder.

In the front head date code, 8 indicates the head was cast in 1948. L indicates month of casting but in this instance the exact month is unclear. According to Palmer’s FEs, in an aluminium date code A thru L indicated Jan thru Dec. However, in his SE he said from 1948 and on, the letter I was dropped and M indicated Dec. It is true that M appears in 48–49 but the letter I was not dropped for aluminium codes. In fact the letter I can be found as late as 1953 on some Flathead aluminium parts. Anyway, in 1948 casting it still isn’t exactly clear what month the letter L indicated and it’s something I continue to investigate.

On your rear head the letter in the code won’t be o because it wasn’t used. Letters used on heads for 1948-49 Pans were A thru M but neither of the characters in your code look like I or M. If the number is 8 then it indicates 1948. The only other possibility is 9.

Re the springer ID, I’ll look in Palmer’s SE and get back to you.
Eric

Speeding Big Twin
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Re: '50 FL project

#28

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:10 am

Sarre, I sent you a PM.
Eric

VPH-D
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:00 am

Re: '50 FL project

#29

Post by VPH-D » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:39 pm

F and R means front and rear. An FL serial number without the 7s stamped into the rear of the crankcase suggests the cases were born as EL.
VPH-D

RUBONE
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Re: '50 FL project

#30

Post by RUBONE » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:06 am

Springer rockers are dead simple to rebuild as there is NO fitting involved, merely replacing pieces. A vice or large C-Clamp is all that is needed.

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