tranny leak

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saddlebagrail
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Re: tranny leak

#31

Post by saddlebagrail » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:13 pm

Cotten wrote:Folks,

The more I inspect the O-ring'd spacer idea,
the more I lean toward teflon tape.

....Cotten
Cotten

No disrespect here,but there is a better solution than teflon tape ,not that teflon tape is not good but there is an application for the teflon tape and one for the spacer with o-rings,you could follow my complete thread and see I correct the problem...without teflon tape :D ,Ray

I have writen a bunch about tranny leaks here is the first one from my blog on Caimag.com if you continue your search on my blog you will find others.


http://www.caimag.com/wordpress/2010/02 ... -solution/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



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Re: tranny leak

#32

Post by Cotten » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:27 am

Saddlebagrail!

I appreciate your initiative, but my position on the issue has been stated more than once.

Any leakage at that interface will be insignificant, unless the nut comes loose.

So keeping the nut tight should take priority over efforts that would only hide the real problem.

Only the incredibly anal would be concerned with minute leakage beyond the original design, for after all, it would only benefit a sprocket and chain.

Running with a loose nut, without the alert by leakage, is a different matter.

....Cotten
PS: Sorry I cannot browse your CAI.mag links, but the site doesn't accept me.

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Re: tranny leak

#33

Post by saddlebagrail » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:47 am

Cotten wrote:Saddlebagrail!

My position on the issue has been stated more than once.

Any leakage at that interface will be insignificant, unless the nut comes loose.

So keeping the nut tight should take priority over efforts that would only hide the real problem.

Only the incredibly anal would be concerned with minute leakage beyond the original design, for after all, it would only benefit a sprocket and chain.

Running with a loose nut, without the alert by leakage, is a different matter.

....Cotten
Cotten

I totally respect your opinion on the subject ,Some doesn't mind having a spot on the garage floor and you are right about the benefit for the sprocket and chain being oiled,but some find it very annoying,I am on that side :D ,

Concerning the nut to be tight enough,if you are using the MoCo design you need to torque the sprocket way over what would be normaly needed for that thin nut like this ,only to try to push enough pressure on the shoulder of the gear itself to stop the oil from escaping,with a new spacer with o-ring even if the sprocket is not there ,you will not see any oil coming out,so nut could be tighten normaly and not as high as the MoCo recommended.

If I would have a Knucklehead or a Panhead that would not have a seal installed on the main drive gear from the factory , I would have for sure install some seals at the end of the main drive gear,I think that even if you want to stay anal and completly original, it is common sense to keep the oil inside instead that on the garage floor,and on another note my complete modification could not be seen from the outside, even if you have the best AMCA judge :mrgreen: ,Ray
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Re: tranny leak

#34

Post by Cotten » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:29 am

Saddlebagrail!

Please take this with friendly respect as well,
but if you have enough oil coming past a spacer and gear to mark your floor, its loose,..
or at least sitting in the same spot much too long!

The factory design for pre-'65 un-sealed drive gears was for the bushing to have full flow for lube, with the excess, including any possible leakage past the splines, deflected into the primary chain.
"Well Oiled Machines" meant externally as well as internally.

If you are going to agonize over every stain,
then beware that the historical appreciation of the machine may well be lost in seeking a modernized experience.

...Cotten

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Re: tranny leak

#35

Post by 58flh » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:05 pm

Saddlebagrail----congrats on nice thought-out piece!--Im sure alot of guys will benefit from it!---As far as digglers problem--in my opinion ,He should fully disassemble the mixer,& replace EVERYTHING that isnt correct as far as specs. are concerned!.The tranny case & mainshaft bering should have special attention in this area!-(just my opinion).---I do not have a duo-nut / or double seal o-ring in my knuckles--mixer. I have rebuilt it over a decade ago & when I assembled it all the areas must be filled with a sealer!--(& I dont like using them, but certain areas do demand it).Also I rack alot of mileage & my tranny dont weep!,--when I put a new chain on & new friction discs I had the perfect oportuninty to LOOKSEE the mainshaft!---I dont leak-(any more than is REQUIED!)--she dont leave major spots under her even if put away hot & it sits for 2-3 days!--What I get is a VERY small drop that should be there. If it wasent I would take instant alarm to it!. As far as the Supernut you machined-up with the o-ring,-I think its a good thing & serves a good purpose for a few guys!. For me as far as giving advise to Dirkdiggler>--I would tear down completely & Looksee what your dealing with ,Its olny then that He will know what needs to be done!)--As far as a dripper of a tranny, After a nice 2-3hr. ride, I have seen the LOOSE drivegear problem alot!---This is why this site kicks ass, I get to see & talk with profesionals like yourselves!----respectfully----RICHIE

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Re: tranny leak

#36

Post by Cotten » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:37 pm

C'mon, Ray,

The nut must be tight to withstand the enormous shocks of the drive train.
Otherwise, the sprocket 'rocks', the drive gear splines egg out, and things can interfere inside.
As I posted, your first clue that it is loose is leakage.

The designers had no reason to consider folks foolishly running with a loose sprocket.
If your seal works as proposed, then there will be little warning before the gear starts walking into the shifter clutch.

On to the end seal,
it shortens the bushing bearing surface (allowing more rocking action, and shortening its life), prevents full flow of lube (shortening its life), and leaves the clutchdrum sprocket dependent upon a bath in a closed housing.
All oil exiting the end of the bushing, even past the splines if possible, is contained within a tin primary, deflected to the primary sprocket where it needs it.

A properly-oiled drive chain should certainly mist more oil to drip on your floor than a tight sprocket spacer.
If even that is too messy for you, then I fear some experience in your very early life is interfereing with your appreciation of a historical vehicle for what it was.

....Cotten

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Re: tranny leak

#37

Post by saddlebagrail » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:23 pm

C'mon, Ray,

The nut must be tight to withstand the enormous shocks of the drive train.
Otherwise, the sprocket 'rocks', the drive gear splines egg out, and things can interfere inside.
As I posted, your first clue that it is loose is leakage.

Even if the sprocket is tight you will often find a small leak, due to face not being perfectly flat or parallel, I am not talking about having a loose sprocket on the gear, but use normal force to tighten the sprocket instead of what MoCo ask for, and when everything is set, lock the sprocket in place with the external lock tab.

The designers had no reason to consider folks foolishly running with a loose sprocket.
If your seal works as proposed, then there will be little warning before the gear starts walking into the shifter clutch.

Spacer is identical in size as the oem ones, and will not harm anything else but only to keep oil inside your tranny.

On to the end seal,
it shortens the bushing bearing surface (allowing more rocking action, and shortening its life), prevents full flow of lube (shortening its life), and leaves the clutch drum sprocket dependent upon a bath in a closed housing.
All oil exiting the end of the bushing, even past the splines if possible is contained within a tin primary, deflected to the primary sprocket where it needs it.

Bushing is actually less than a 1/4 inch difference in length over the oem ones, but with a «perfect all around» matching surface to the shaft, if you compare to the reamer with an oem bushing that is almost machine to nominal size when you buy it off the shelf, if you look closely at the end ,when you pass the reamer you will see that only a few spot has been machined, the reason why wear occur prematurely on an oem set-up and gear become loose on shaft ,I have been tested these trannies for a long time now and have made those modifications for well over 20 years and will continue to do them …but only for the guys that want to have an original bike that don’t want to leave a spot, and keep in mind that it is possible.

A properly-oiled drive chain should certainly mist more oil to drip on your floor than a tight sprocket spacer.
If even that is too messy for you, then I fear some experience in your very early life is interfereing with your appreciation of a historical vehicle for what it was.
I respect these historical vehicles, but as all thing nowadays things like this could be improve, by that I mean that many improvement over the year took place,… several factors like better gasket and sealing compounds to name a few to keep them on the road but without creating some pollution along the ways, some still need to have oil all over their bike to prove they ride an old Bike, but at the price of oil better keep it inside to cool and lubricate…. than elsewhere.
If you absolutely need oil spot on the garage floor to ride an original bike then a better solution might be to keep the drain plug away from the oil tank, then you will have a real spot 

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Re: tranny leak

#38

Post by Cotten » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:25 pm

Ray wrote:
"Even if the sprocket is tight you will often find a small leak, due to face not being perfectly flat or parallel,.."

The faces better be machined parallel, or you are dealing with junk to begin with.

Indeed, I always lathe-cut a step into the spacer to take up the assembly's endplay, without issue of "parallel".
If these surfaces are improperly machined in the first place, then there are certain to be other issues as well.

"I am not talking about having a loose sprocket on the gear, but use normal force to tighten the sprocket instead of what MoCo ask for, and when everything is set, lock the sprocket in place with the external lock tab."

You are suggesting that we do not tighten as a 1 1/2" fastener normally requires?

"Spacer is identical in size as the oem ones, and will not harm anything else but only to keep oil inside your tranny."

If the nut comes loose, even an OEM spacer does not prevent the gear from walking sideways.

"Bushing is actually less than a 1/4 inch difference in length over the oem ones,.."

With a double-bind assembly, where the gear must bear both on the inside as well as the outside, upon a long shaft with a lot of whip and flex, every ¼" is significant.
The later short-bushing design depended upon an outboard support bearing for stability.

"....but with a «perfect all around» matching surface to the shaft, if you compare to the reamer with an oem bushing that is almost machine to nominal size when you buy it off the shelf, if you look closely at the end ,when you pass the reamer you will see that only a few spot has been machined, the reason why wear occur prematurely on an oem set-up and gear become loose on shaft,.."

Mistake #1 was to use a bushing off the shelf from a Dealership.
Special Clevites were produced for unskilled Dealership techs without proper tooling, and damn right they don't last. It is certainly a shortened fuse for the end seal.
I couldn't believe it when I went to fit one in front of a customer, and it was loose as a goose, raw.

Aftermarket Clevites remained properly undersized for many years.

And I hope like hell a reamer isn't how you finish them!
The gear, spacer, and sprocket (or similar fixture), must be firmly assembled with a fully torqued nut before rough-reaming, or boreing upon a lathe.

Final fitting is usually performed upon a pedestal hone, and yes, the entire surface 'cleans up' with a quality bushing.
Even cheap imports, come to think of it.

When the nut is released, the bore will actually tighten below spec.
Re-installation returns the bore to true.
A bushing fit without the stress of assembly will splay bell-mouthed when installed.

"...but only for the guys that want to have an original bike that don’t want to leave a spot, and keep in mind that it is possible."

Did you also sell them an oversized O-ring drive chain, complete belt drive with dry clutch, and a breather drool cup?

....Cotten

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Re: tranny leak

#39

Post by saddlebagrail » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:59 pm

Well I guess I can't win with you :mrgreen: ,I was only trying to help,for those who are tired of that annoying problems you could follow my links as it is explain step by step and if you need further information just ask,I will gladly help.

On a different note from my side I think I have help a lot of old Harley owners either by modifying their main drive gears or selling spacers , I have sold hundreds of them as we speak and everyone are more than happy with the end results,that's all I need for now,I know it is hard to convince the die hard :mrgreen:.

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Re: tranny leak

#40

Post by George Greer » Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:57 am

Ray,

What is the trick to installing your spacer without tearing the O ring?

I'm using the one I got from you, and when I put the 4th gear assembly together to set the end play, I tore the O ring even after putting a couple or wraps of teflon tape on the threads.

And, do you have a part number of the O ring you supplied with the spacer?

I am going to take a closer look at the 4th gear and look for any sharp edges that I will de-burr before going any further.

Thanks.

George

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Re: tranny leak

#41

Post by saddlebagrail » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:53 pm

Georges and others

The o-ring size is 029 and material is Buna Duro70 black,just let me know by email( at the end of this text) if you need more,I could send you some,Ray

Here is some information and tips on installation of the spacer.......

Here is something that need to be done before «anything»,deburring all sharp edge,mainly against the shoulder,and also at the spline where the sprocket often create some burrs.

Here is something taken from member Bowdoinmaine from the Shovelhead forum.

«The spacer comes with extra O rings and I managed to ruin a few because they are easily cut on the splines as you push the spacer in. But as with all things practice makes perfect. I found that dressing the sharp edges with an abrasive rubber wheel on my dremel let me install the spacer first try without O ring damage».

....Then use a very tight wrap of electrical tape over the thread.

Grease the wrap of electrical tape and also the inside the spacer.

Install the main seal over the spacer(grease also the inside of the main seal).

Then push the spacer with the main seal in a clockwise motion over the main gear.

Note.... try to push on spacer,do not hammer on it ,use a piece of plastic/abs pipe to hit the seal as you push the spacer inside.


The spacer with should slide right over the main gear and it will be a little tighter around 1/8 inch before the shoulder where the o-ring start to seal.

When installing both the seal and spacer together, I found that there is less change of ruining the main seal and o-ring in the spacer.


If you happen to slice an o-ring , «make sure you try the spacer without o-ring before installing another one»,using the spacer without an o-ring to make sure there is no burrs on the gear,it should slide right on without restrictions.

Here is some instruction to change the sliced o-ring

Install a small part of the o-ring into the groove(not at the bottom at the groove yet,but just inside the groove) ,then another part around 1/2 inch away around the circonference(clockwise or counter-clockwise it is up to you ) push the o-ring again in the groove but with slight pressure towards the very first position of the o-ring that where is was installed in the groove, than ½ inch again push the o-ring inside again with slight presure to the first position , then again,then again,till you have made a complete turn,you will end up with o-ring all around but with some part of it not in the groove.


You will have a few spots that the o-ring will not be in the groove(like a «star» pattern looking inside the spacer),try pushing those parts a little at a time with your finger in a rotational movement,you will have one very last spot at the end that will be slightly off,that part will finally dissapear in the groove,just slide over it with your finger in a clockwise or counter clockwise motion a few time.


Then use a broom or a file handle to make sure it is position correctly at the bottom of the groove,just make a complete turn with your finger ,you should not feel any difference at all,and that is all around
the inside,if you feel something different then make a couple of turn with the
handle again,it should now be fine,lubricate with grease when
installing.

Most of the time when peoples are having a hard time installing the spacer,it is due by lack of preparation,this is why I send you couple of extras o-rings in case,please take the time to do it one step at a time,that way you should expect excellent results.

Hope this help,anything else please just ask,

Ray

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Re: tranny leak

#42

Post by Panhead Ed » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:11 pm

OMG ! get a fkn grip.... So many post on this site about originality and procrastination about if its not HD it aint no good. which way do you guys want it ? you gonna ride it or look at it ? Vehicles from earlier days requiered regular maintenence and left their mark. If you cant handle it buy a GD goldwing and stop crying .

To lube or not to lube .... theres only one correct answer

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Re: tranny leak

#43

Post by 58flh » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:35 pm

ED!---your absolutely on point!---I never heard guys bitchin when I was a Kid in POPs clubhouse/Garage.--You wrenched on yours & others & its What it took to Roll YEAR-ROUND!---When I hear of -(my bike drips oil)--That's right!--The problem is if NO OIL is dripped!--I routinely add just under a QT. of oil every 4 to 500Miles when its time to ADJ. everything & tighten-up!--IF the PRIMARY CHAIN is not WET-LOOKING or if you run a finger on it & it comes out dry & black--THE chains already done!--Also The REAR must be WET!-(THATS PROPER OILING!).---YRS, ago When you got a new HD -IT was EXPECTED of you to do your own PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE!---THESE OLD BIKES are not for everybody!--IF you want to go out on Sunday -(if its not raining :roll: )-& take a ride Then get a something that requires NOTHING but GAS!-Push the button & see ya!.There are ALOT of nice NEW Bikes being produced!--I came-up around dinosaurs & love OLD-BIKES!--Indians,HD,BSA,Triumph,ETC!--To me its in-natural to not have to ADJ. something at sometime!--JUST my 2! & with Respect---RICHIE 8)

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Re: tranny leak

#44

Post by George Greer » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:48 pm

Ed,

That's a little rough don't ya think?

I don't mind oil marks from a properly adjusted chain oiler, lubricating what it should.

I think that I am trying to improve a bit on the bike, and keep the oil in the transmission where it should be.

I'm a helicopter mechanic by trade, and I sure don't want to fly in one that leaks hydraulic fluid or oils all over the place. I guess that it is just habit that I think that fluids should stay where they belong.

Lighten up.

George

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Re: tranny leak

#45

Post by George Greer » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:03 pm

Ray,

PM sent.

George

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