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recentjester
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:11 pm

hard starting cold

#1

Post by recentjester » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:17 am

Running a bendex carb with adjustable Main Jet it seems to work ok. But in this last resurection, It will popsmoke out aircleaner a few times after quite a few kicks (backfire thru carb) Lifters are solids they are set correctly. Once started it runs fine. I have checked timing with the book as well as with light. I have no idea what cam is in the bike if I go with hydraulic lifters can this hurt the cam



Cotten
Posts: 6911
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois

#2

Post by Cotten » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:32 pm

RJ!

Do your plugs burn the same? Are you running a carb support? You may wish to pressuretest your intake manifold for leaks.

You can get an idea of what your cam might be by putting a dial indicator upon a lifter and determining its lift. Anything other than 'mild' would not like hydraulics.

....Cotten

panz4ever
Posts: 522
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:45 pm

#3

Post by panz4ever » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:49 pm

My 50 pan runs solids only so I cannot help w/ the hydraulic idea. But just a thought about timing. I am not one to push books and their ideas on others. I have no affiliation and nothing to gain but I will tell you one of the best books I have found and use is Kirk Perry's Mechanics and Owners guide for 41-59 HDs. I thought I had my timing right and went thru the usual sometimes it starts right up and at others does not. I went through his book, followed his directions (they are very clear) and reset the timing. Result...two cold kicks with gas on, no throttle, choke on (S&SB), ignition on, just a touch of throttle (S&S does not like a lot of gas), one kick and it starts every time.

I know every pan owner has their own .02 on staring pans, just mine. Oh, the bike is runnning an Andrews cam and bored to 80

VPH-D
Posts: 854
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:00 am

#4

Post by VPH-D » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:52 pm

Some long duration cams require an extra prime kick or two. The Andrews Bendix carbs were 38mm, they also sold the main jet by itself. I had one back in the 70s and was never able to figure it out. I think the Pans like the 36mm carb better. I've switched over to the S&S E on my stuff. My younger brother has used a Bendix on his 49 since the late 70s and it always starts easily. The Bendix hides well behind Stock air filter assy and allows the use of original solid wire handlebars. ...
VPH-D

ponypower

cold start

#5

Post by ponypower » Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:30 am

I ride a 50 pan 93" stroker, had similar prob, using a s&s E, after long ride i let it idle a minute and started on the carb. Found out i had it too rich 1/4 turn or a little more and as i turned it in i noticed my idle go up and turned it down to 900 and had to adjust my accel pump to squirt a little more (not much) to get rid of my hesitation. Now it is a 2 kick wonder. I realized i was giving it too much gas with the idle jet and the throttle was cracked too far open to get it to start good.
Just a suggestion
Jason

recentjester
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:11 pm

tryin to dial it in

#6

Post by recentjester » Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:21 am

Anonymous wrote:RJ!

Do your plugs burn the same? Are you running a carb support? You may wish to pressuretest your intake manifold for leaks.

You can get an idea of what your cam might be by putting a dial indicator upon a lifter and determining its lift. Anything other than 'mild' would not like hydraulics.

....Cotten
Plugs were different rear cylinder was sooty when u looked down in the insulator. Have a carb support off case stud. Hole in middle of it for gas line. It is well supported. Changed o-rings on manifold drew it all up together carb is level. The bad starting had got to me so I made these changes but also I had developed a pop thru the carb just goin along an Pop! there it would be. then go along awhile an another random one at 45 or 50 above that its all go no prob. points are at .022 float level is 3/16's same old bendex what makes this poppin enriching main jet may help but I am out 2 turns now!

Cotten
Posts: 6911
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois

#7

Post by Cotten » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:50 am

RJ!

Even though you have re-installed everything, you can not assume it is absolutely sealed. Only pressuretesting can eliminate this dangerous variable with certainty. Then you can go on to fine tuning.

Someone else will have to offer suggestions for jetting your modern carb.

...Cotten

carbobber

#8

Post by carbobber » Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:32 am

generally any popping out the carb can indicate a lean condition.
I'd follow Cotons advice then see how things are..

Gotta have a solid foundation, before ya build the house

(somethin like that)

Guest

#9

Post by Guest » Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:54 pm

carbobber wrote:generally any popping out the carb can indicate a lean condition.
I'd follow Cotons advice then see how things are..

Gotta have a solid foundation, before ya build the house

(somethin like that)
I understand. It is still lean, thinkin about buyin some new style double clamp (magnum) clamps (american Legend) or some two piece clamps they carry not sure which is better seal. Don't feel like backin all the way up to the reinstalling the old plumbers manifold.

Cotten
Posts: 6911
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois

#10

Post by Cotten » Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:19 am

The two-piece clamps distort the o-ring horribly.

The plumbers design is definitely the best now that there is an alternative to unforgiving brass.

...Cotten

fourthgear
Posts: 1390
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:12 pm
Location: north florida

#11

Post by fourthgear » Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:20 pm

And the alternative to leaky plumbers type threaded nipples are O-ring type manifolds, Sorry Cotten I couldn't resist.[/quote]

Cotten
Posts: 6911
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois

#12

Post by Cotten » Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:50 am

No, the alternative is to replace the brass with PEEK.

O-rings are temporary gummyworms, and the conversion depreciates a vintage machine horribly, at great expense, with risk of damage to the heads.

....Cotten

carbobber

#13

Post by carbobber » Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:29 am

I just anneal the brass & it seals very well. This commant made after psi testing as Coton always says to do..It worked for HD all those years.

fourthgear
Posts: 1390
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:12 pm
Location: north florida

#14

Post by fourthgear » Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:19 pm

I agree with the statement about depreciating the heads , but even with your peek wounder ( and I do mean wounder, can't take anything from you expertice in this field ) addressing the threaded parts is probably why HD changed them and just about every manufacturer ( including the arospace industry ) are using gummy worms to seal just about every thing. As said , if value of the machine is what you want of course stay with it, but saying the P-trap they call a manifold is defenitly the best is a bold statement and has been proven with history to be still a problem other wise my heads would not of had leaks in the threaded area. Yes I could have had them built up and re-threaded , but that would still be welding on them and would run the same risks as welding conversion nipples for gummy worms . It is odd that to this day I have had no problems with O-ring manifolds when assembled properly. The fact is ( and I'm sure HD found out ) ya got more potentual points for leaks to occure.

Cotten
Posts: 6911
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois

#15

Post by Cotten » Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:17 pm

A major problem with relying upon annealed brass is that the manifold spigots are often too worn and distorted to accept them.
Many folks are even finding brand new manifolds and brass seals impossible to seal. (Bubbles tell all!)

O-rings work great on heads designed for them,...until the P4gas eats them. But at least they are easy to replace and test.
The reasons HD went to o-rings are obvious: they were finally invented (!), and the savings in machining and production costs was dramatic.
Brass was all there was until then. But brass is just too unforgiving.

So now enthusiasts around the world are cutting PEEK thermoplastic to replace it. (Stock is available from many places, including http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/nnsrhm)

When the manifold spigots are worn, they must be dressed round and true again. This would necessitate a thicker brass seal, which would be even more un-compliant. PEEK has the remarkable properties of compliance, heat resistance, and the tensile strength to support the assembly.
And it is re-useable. Brass work-hardens as it is crimped to the spigot, and suffers from the cyclic heat expansion and vibration.

PEEK seals do not require a cheater bar to conform them, thus reducing the chance of loosening the nipples rivets in the heads, or crushing the spigot.

Custom-cutting services are available from Liberty (myself), Carl's Cycle http://www.carlscyclesupply.com/, and I believe it may now offered by Old Dude http://www.olddude.com/about.htm

Undetectable when installed, they are important insurance against difficult tuning, overheating, and ultimate meltdowns.

Over the half-decade that PEEK has been applied to this application, there have been no reports of anyone wearing a set out. P4gas won't touch it, so n the long run, they have proven superior to the 'modern' o-ring design.

...Cotten

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