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What's the secret to Hot starts ?

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TimmyV
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What's the secret to Hot starts ?

#1

Post by TimmyV » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:53 am

Only had my '61 Pan for a few weeks now & am just getting to know this ol gal. 3-4 prime kicks, then 1-2 kicks with key on & she fires right up. Seems to run good although once warmed up is very hard to start. New points & condenser, timing checked. S&S Super E carb adjusted correctly to the best of my knowledge. Good oil flow & return to the tank, 60 weight oil in tank, BTW. Not certain what else to check as I am new to Pans, but not new to motorcycles. Been wrenching on my own stuff for 33 years & can't get a handle on this hot starting. Best that I can tell, this motor was recently rebuilt prior to the previous owners death back in 2006, could it simply be a matter of everything still being tight & needing more break in ?

Any advice or tips to share ?

TIA,
TimmyV



steve_wood
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Re: What's the secret to Hot starts ?

#2

Post by steve_wood » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:29 pm

Could be that the carb is loaded up with fuel. When you shut down, you kill the spark, but the engine is still turning and drawing in fuel, which just sits there. When you go to start it up, there's too much fuel in the intake manifold etc.

Try opening the throttle wide to clear it out when you try a hot start.

Bigincher
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Re: What's the secret to Hot starts ?

#3

Post by Bigincher » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:45 pm

My S&S likes a dead closed throttle when starting hot. Don't even crack it a little, just retard the spark, bring up a compression stroke, turn the key on, and kick it through. This would be another way to try it along with the other suggestion.

steinauge
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Re: What's the secret to Hot starts ?

#4

Post by steinauge » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:55 pm

Do you have the insulator block between the carb and manifold?If not that will do what you describe.Also might have a look at float level and check for a hot air leak.These old bikes are a lot like women,no two are alike and none of them know exactly what they want.

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Re: What's the secret to Hot starts ?

#5

Post by Ohio-Rider » Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:34 pm

Hi Timmy, I fought the same hot start problem as you. Here are my two suggestions for you to try.

1)- Pressure test your manifold. It is mandatory with these old panheads that you have zero leaks. When your engine is cold the leaks won’t inhibit the engine from starting the way they do when hot. Next time the engine is hot and won’t start, pull either plug and if you find it dry then you probably have a manifold leak.

2)- Go to the S&S web sight and down load their procedure for returning the carb back to factory settings. Then tune the carb to your engine. I have found lots of guys who have fiddled with their carb settings trying to cure a manifold leak, only to get the carb so far out of wack that they just ended up chasing their own tails.

These engines should start up just like in the old movies when the cop gives it one kick and away he goes. Good Luck

TimmyV
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Re: What's the secret to Hot starts ?

#6

Post by TimmyV » Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:44 pm

Thanks for the replies gentlemen. Okay, stupid question time : How would I pressure test the manifold for a leak ? I know about spraying WD-40 or something like that around manifold while engine is running to show leak. Would this be good enough or is there a better way ?

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Re: What's the secret to Hot starts ?

#7

Post by NightShift » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:04 pm

Dear Timmy V,

Ive got a buddy that uses a CO2 fire extinguisher.

But soapy water with air pressure put where the carb goes doesn't miss anything.

'Spectful,

Ohio-Rider
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Re: What's the secret to Hot starts ?

#8

Post by Ohio-Rider » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:39 pm

The only true way to test is as NightShift said, Using soapy water and between 7 and 12 lbs air pressure sent through the manifold after removing the carb. One of our members hear sells a real nice package for doing this. Here is where you can get ahold of him. http://www.geocities.com/mbskeam/

Using WD40 or any flammable will only show if you have a BIG leak and could lead to a BIG fire. Stick with the tried and true method. Its a bit more of a hassle but easily worth the trouble when your bike is once again a one kick machine.

TimmyV
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Re: What's the secret to Hot starts ?

#9

Post by TimmyV » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:42 pm

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm all ears.

Steve_wood, I tried that, it didn't seem to make a difference, not on my motorcycle anyways.

Bigincher, Since you're running an S&S carb, I'll give that a shot. Seems that this doesn't happen every time, maybe it's simply been operator error all along.

Steinauge, yep, the insulator block is there. No gasket between it & carb though. I downloaded the S&S manual for the Super E & the manifold parts list / diagram doesn't show one, so I'm not certain if it needs one or not, just that there wasn't one when I took it apart. But, while looking at the parts diagram I just noticed that the big "O" ring on the insulator block is supposed to face the manifold. Possibly when I had the carb off for cleaning I installed the insulator block backwards.


Ohio Rider, You may very well be onto something too. Previously I said the carb was tuned correctly to the best of my knowledge. Actually I think it's running a bit rich. Has 295 Intermediate jet & 72 Main, which is what I used to run on my 80" Evo. Bike does seem to run good, but the farthest I've rode her is about 4 miles roundtrip. Electrode & ceramic portion on plugs will have a tan color to it, but steel face of plug body will be fluffy black but not wet.

You also got me to thinking about a possible manifold leak. I checked out mbskeams site & have added his test kit to my list of "must-haves".

I'm headed out to the garage to take things apart & see what I find.

Thanks again

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Re: What's the secret to Hot starts ?

#10

Post by FlatHeadSix » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:46 am

Tim
This may not help because comparing a Linkert to an S&S is apples and bananas but I have always found that opening the throttle is the only way I can get mine to start when its hot. The Linkert starts best with a nearly closed throttle when cold but after I have ridden it a while, and it is still hot, I have to hold the throttle open more than half way to get it to start. But every bike is different and we all have to find the right combination for our unique collections of parts and equipment.

The damn things started reliably when they were new, they should be just as reliable now. The cops got 'em going when they needed to and Lee Marvin even got his going with one kick in the Wild Ones, and how about Peter Fonda and Dennis Hopper? If they start in the movies they should start in front of your local bar with everyone watching.

mike

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Re: What's the secret to Hot starts ?

#11

Post by Jack_Hester » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:57 am

On my '59:

Warm weather - no choke; one kick with ignition off; find compression point for next kick; turn ignition on and kick. Fires 90% of the time. I do this cold or hot engine.

Cold weather - choke 1/2 on; primer kick; choke off; ignition on and kick. This is for a cold engine. I do the above, for a hot engine.

On occasion, I will flood it. But, the only thing I do then is roll the throttle wide open and kick. Usually starts on the first kick after opening the throttle.

Also, I have my spark slightly retarded when cranking. Once it's running, I advance it and leave it that way, retarding it as it warms up. I run at a fast idle, so even with the throttle at minimum, it's idling very fast. Retarding the spark slows it down, though I don't care for the 'potato, potato, potato' sound, as I'm trying to move oil. 'Potato, potato, potato' doesn't move oil.

Jack

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Re: What's the secret to Hot starts ?

#12

Post by john HD » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:33 am

tim

i noticed this in your reply
the insulator block is there. No gasket between it & carb though
i think if you get another gasket in there it may work better.

as the guys mentioned when hot, open the throttle slightly, retard the ignition a little and give her a try.

john

TimmyV
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Re: What's the secret to Hot starts ?

#13

Post by TimmyV » Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:46 pm

johnHD, Yes, I mentioned that there is not a gasket between carb & insulator block as well as the fact that the S& S diagram does not show a gasket there, but 2 orings, one on carb side, one on manifold side. I might try a gasket anyways just to see once I determine if I installed the insulator block backward with both o-rings facing each other.

Oh yea, forgot to mention that I have an auto advance distributor.

Didn't get to check the bike out last night like I wanted to, so maybe this afternoon when I get home from work.

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Re: What's the secret to Hot starts ?

#14

Post by PanPal » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:38 pm

I only had an S&S carb for a short period of time' but it flooded very easily when hot. I wouldn't even touch the throttle when hot to start it. The bike ran well when started with the S&S but it was too inconsistant in my case.

I'd make sure your float is shutting off flow to the bowl also. When cold starting you more than likely just opened you petcock. when it's hot more than likely it's been sitting a bit and gas can start draining into your manifold. It could be your flooded already before you start kicking.

You could try opening the petcock and lean the bike as if it had a right hand kickstand. If it starts dribbling out you aircleaner you may need to take a look at the float shut off. Just a thought.

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Re: What's the secret to Hot starts ?

#15

Post by Panacea » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:04 pm

When I ran an S&S E carb I also used their insulator block and could never figure out why they only put the O-ring on one side...Mike

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