Now it won't start

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bonham3
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Now it won't start

#1

Post by bonham3 » Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:42 am

Hello everyone again
The pest Pan from Mass. back again.
Once again thank's much for all of your help with my head then distributor probs. All is fine with them now but it won't fire up. Traced it to a fuel problem. Used to be i could flood that Pan just by walking past it but now i gas it good to try to start and no fuel in the clyinders. Have a zenith carb. fuel goes into bowl fine, fuel squirts out fine, goes into intake manifold fine (i think:) then i kick and kick choke and don't etc. Nuttin...
Have spark, valves set, new plugs, etc. Had just put the heads back on and that's when i asked about the distributor setup. That being done O.K.
Now this. Checked and rechecked lifter settings, pushrod drag etc. Valves were fine before new head gaskets installed. Guess i'll have to find a fuel injection kit. Used to use a straw to prime:)
Thank's for any help on this

Ron (bonham3)



junker
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Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Now it won't start

#2

Post by junker » Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:56 am

are your plugs not getting wet?have you checked for manifold leak?

Billy
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Re: Now it won't start

#3

Post by Billy » Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:23 am

Ron-
Thinking it 's squirting gas into the intake IS NOT good enough. Take off the air cleaner & Visually check"
to be sure. If it IS, you should be able to fire.
If not, the carb needs to be dismantled.
The Zenith/Bendix is very simple & a rebuild kit is about $14. retail

Junker asked & me too, what do the plugs look like ??

You may have a Bad intake leak & not pulling the gas needed. Particularly since the heads were just put back on & the intake seals were dis-rupted.
Always the BEST way to go is Pressure Test intake fittings & nipples, as per the detailed instructions below.
Then you remove ALL doubt!!!!

Check out Cotten's Intake leak link;

http://virtualindian.org/11techleaktest.html

Plain
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:18 pm

Re: Now it won't start

#4

Post by Plain » Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:14 pm

Ron:

Are you SURE that you have it timed correctly? In your last post on the other thread it appeared that you were trying to time the engine using REAR TDC. If that is the mark that you used to time, then you are going to be 35 degrees RETARDED when you try to start. And, it won't.

Plain

dereborn
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Re: Now it won't start

#5

Post by dereborn » Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:28 pm

I myself made the mistake to set the timing 180 degrees out... :P Barely dared to tell anyone until I heard much more skilled and scarred rides had don the same mistake!

Scratched my head a few times until i realized what it was. You know, gas OK, sparks flying etc...

Just double check this isn't your problem!
Good Luck!

bonham3
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Now it won't start

#6

Post by bonham3 » Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:23 pm

plugs were dry. looked into the intake with throttle wide open gas in there. As far as the dist. i did find the timing mark (vertical line with a "T" to the left of it and an "F" to the right side of it) used that one not the other line with the "R" next to it. Hoisted push rod covers up and checked position of lifters both lifters were bottomed out and rods spun free. Dropped in dist. with arrows lined up (almost) then turned advance full and a slight turn 1/4" on body to exact arrow lineup then let go of advance and locked it down. Figured it was close enough for fire. Was careful with intake and after a little while i figured i would roll the o-rings over the manifiold ports and put my clamps in place then roll rings onto nipple and clamped down evenly nice and tight etc. Will try the leak test and if that is O.k. what would the carb. problem be if it fills and squirts and fuel is present in manifold? Before, carb was adequate but float needle stuck on occassion and bowl flooded out.
And also gas seemed to siphon into cylinder (rear) and flood. Oh well, fix one thing and then another works just the opposite.

bonham3
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Now it won't start

#7

Post by bonham3 » Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:15 pm

Decided to pull carb and look at intake man. loosened front clamp and checked o-ring area, it was dry.
then loosened rear and slid clamp to the side, o-ring and inside of clamp were wet with gas. the 0-rings looked good to me so i reused them when i put the heads back on previously. Probably did not tighten clamp down enough. Should i replace with oem or are there other types better? Add some type of sealer to them also?
Think once this manifold is tight bike will run.
Might as well take carb. apart also and clean inspect etc.

Plain
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:18 pm

Re: Now it won't start

#8

Post by Plain » Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:26 pm

Ron:

This is getting really frustrating. Go back and read the other thread.

The timing mark F|T usually indicates Top Dead Center Front Cylinder. That is why I asked you to check ALL marks on the wheel. Do you see another mark such as F| about 35 degrees before the F|T mark. You can use a plastic soda straw to stick down in the spark plug hole. Is the piston at TDC when the F|T mark is in the center of the timing hole? Or, does it still have about 3/4" to go before it hits TDC?

If, as I suspect, you are timing at TDC, then you are timing at zero degrees. When you advance the Mallory to full advance and line up the arrows, you have full advance set at zero degrees. What give you a thirty five degree retarded timing when you are trying to start it. You can kick it till hell freezes over at thirty five degrees retarded and it is not going to start.

MAKE SURE that you have the timing correct. MAKE SURE that you do not have a manifold leak.

Plugs dry says that you are not getting gas. Look for a manifold leak. Even a small one will cause a cylinder to run lean and heat up. Check the flywheel for additional timing marks. If you are SURE that you have it timed right, then you are getting down to carb and manifold leak to zero in on.

Adios-----Plain

bonham3
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Now it won't start

#9

Post by bonham3 » Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:45 am

I found two marks. R l and T l F just as you look at it in the hole. I centered T l F smack in the middle made sure front piston was at top of travel and both lifters were at bottom. I lined up the two arrows and dropped dist. in. then i turned advance to full and held while i slightly turned dist. body about one quarter inch to line up arrows perfectly. even went to the point of turning rotor one tooth back and forth to be sure of the difference. that being done and thinking O.K. i wrote the next thread about the carb. and intake man. unless wrong so far i plan to put in two new o-rings tomorrow and tighten down. Weird thing, when i removed the old rings i was looking at them and noticed one looked thinner than the other and also that same one seemed to have a slightly smaller diameter. Then my head starts to spin going back to the intake port size diff. between 48 and 50 heads. i was told they are diff. so would the nipple be a diff. size also.
Also i wanted some info on the o-rings. Which were best etc. and what about rubber bands? do they apply to this 61" pan ...........................................................
I can't wait to be able to write back to someone with my help for a change:)

Billy
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Re: Now it won't start

#10

Post by Billy » Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:29 am

ALWAYS put in NEW good quality O-rings & YOU REALLY need to pressure test for leaks as described before,
or this thread will NEVER end.
That's the only way to know for sure you have a Perfect seal. Otherwise, you're pissing in the wind.

Cotten
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Re: Now it won't start

#11

Post by Cotten » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:27 pm

I'll bet your inserts leak all by themselves, even before you install the manifold. I call it "Colony-kit" disease.

I am not aware of any difference in port size from '48 to '50. Or from '40 to '54, for that matter.

Plain
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:18 pm

Re: Now it won't start

#12

Post by Plain » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:40 pm

Ron:

Use new o-rings. Rubber bands WILL NOT WORK on this application. O-rings should be the same size. To the best of my knowledge there is absolutely no difference in the intake ports in a '48 head and a '50 head. Someone else may clarify this. Nipple size should be exactly the same on both heads.

You still have not stated whether the piston is at the top of the stroke when you are lining up what you think is the front cylinder timing mark. Piston should be somewhere between 3/4" and 1/2" below top dead center (flet with a plastic straw) when the correct front cylinder timing mark is in the hole and the front cylinder on the compression stroke. Check the R| mark and note the position of the rear cylinder on the compression stroke. Is the top of the piston before or at TDC?

Plain

bonham3
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Now it won't start

#13

Post by bonham3 » Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:12 pm

Finally can end this thread anyway.
Thank's all for the help. Dist. was off one tooth.
advanced it one ,dropped it in and one kick V'rooommm:)
Replaced the o-rings with harley oem also. Worked fine no leaks anywhere.
But back to the same old problem that i started with before. The rear head. Guess i should of had the head checked out more thouroughly. After all the work then getting it to start, oil in the combustion chamber again.
new james firering gaskets, torqued and retorqued lifters set, etc. Ruled out the rings, but still not the gasket or head trueness or oil getting by the exhaust valve stem from up above. Want to start with the valve.
your gonna love this one. never did a valve job before but??? All of the valves were new. i did not do the valve work but noticed all valve stems had a brass sleeve on them and all but one (the rear exhaust) had a chrome bushing over the brass ones. Did the valve man miss something here? In my haste (makes waste hurry) said just put em back on like they are (the heads) Could this be the reason oil may be getting in the head?

Billy
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Re: Now it won't start

#14

Post by Billy » Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:28 am

Ron-
How did you rule out the rings??
What proceedure was used to do this ??

bonham3
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Now it won't start

#15

Post by bonham3 » Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:46 am

I did a comp. ck. It was 85 -90 know that is low but with a rebuild under 200 miles and the bike O.k. at the first hundred plus, i hope at least to put that at the bottom of the list:) also the condition of the cylinder wall which was good and clean. seeing as i am getting that puff of smoke again out ot the head area near the exhaust valve and oil return hole i am thinking that is why the comp. is low. guess i cannot completely rule the rings out (want to:) but need to clear up if i have a screwy valve or guide or ??? first. Still concerned about that missing bushing on the valve stem. Can you help me out?

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