Intake rivets

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flatland
Posts: 30
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59 FLH

Intake rivets

#1

Post by flatland » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:10 pm

Found the intake rivet leaking on the front cyl when doing the intake leak test. Spent some time in the Kbase and looks like the temp fix is JB weld or something like that. Two part question, do you clean the area up around the head with a wire brush, put the epoxy on and walk away for a few days so it completely dries ?
I have seen a different type rivet which has something like a 1/4-20 stud with nut that is tightened rather than a rivet that you have to peen to make a seal, which is what I'm dealing with. Did the conical one with the stud work out better than the peened one ? Also, wasn't the peen type on early heads like around 53-54 and changed to the threaded stud after that ?



Cotten
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Re: Intake rivets

#2

Post by Cotten » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:29 pm

Flatland!

It is nearly impossible to seal a nipple already in place.

If it has run at all, contaminants and carbon will prevent any sealer from wicking in and adhereing, even under vacuum.
JVWeld, once cured six weeks, is an excellent sealer for installing a fresh nipple, but there is no other way to effectively apply it.

Please beware that any temporary seal may come back to bite you when your are a long ways from home.

Ideally, the rivet should seal upon the inside, requireing minimal peening of the outside. This is achieved with a conical head upon the rivet on the inside, pressed outward with a cam-action tool described at http://virtualindian.org/11techleaktest.html

Good luck!

....Cotten

flatland
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59 FLH

Re: Intake rivets

#3

Post by flatland » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:58 pm

Cotten
If I understand you correctly, the nipple should be replaced with the rivet to make things correct. Is this something that can be accomplished with the head installed or better done with it removed, is the anvil cam tool something that can be found for sale somewhere or is it home made ?
Wow, there always seems to be another surprise lurking somewhere with this bike.


Cotten wrote:Flatland!

It is nearly impossible to seal a nipple already in place.

If it has run at all, contaminants and carbon will prevent any sealer from wicking in and adhereing, even under vacuum.
JVWeld, once cured six weeks, is an excellent sealer for installing a fresh nipple, but there is no other way to effectively apply it.

Please beware that any temporary seal may come back to bite you when your are a long ways from home.

Ideally, the rivet should seal upon the inside, requireing minimal peening of the outside. This is achieved with a conical head upon the rivet on the inside, pressed outward with a cam-action tool described at http://virtualindian.org/11techleaktest.html

Good luck!

....Cotten

Cotten
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Re: Intake rivets

#4

Post by Cotten » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:01 pm

Flatland!

It is intensive surgery enough upon the bench, much less in the chassis.

The anvil can be any crude stock carved to fit;
Please ignore the wrench socket if you are properly working upon the bench,
as then you merely hold the anvil in a vise, and twist the head upon it for a simple "upset" of the rivet head, like the original.

Nipple replacement is the most difficult operation that I have encountered in all of motor repair, and my own record is far, far from perfect.

It seems simple until you test it.

....Cotten

flatland
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59 FLH

Re: Intake rivets

#5

Post by flatland » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:10 pm

Thanks for your help Sir. Sounds like a winter project, I have been finding plenty of other things to fix. Just finished re wiring the thing after the generator smoked a couple of weeks ago.

Cotten wrote:Flatland!

It is intensive surgery enough upon the bench, much less in the chassis.

The anvil can be any crude stock carved to fit;
Please ignore the wrench socket if you are properly working upon the bench,
as then you merely hold the anvil in a vise, and twist the head upon it for a simple "upset" of the rivet head, like the original.

Nipple replacement is the most difficult operation that I have encountered in all of motor repair, and my own record is far, far from perfect.

It seems simple until you test it.

....Cotten

58flh
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Re: Intake rivets

#6

Post by 58flh » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:54 pm

My exp. with the nipple-seating----Most def. better done on the bench!,-& have a good seat & be comfortable doing it!.--I tried Jb, & another 2-part EPOXY-Hi-temp that you nead & look for a color, once you reach the correct color & All the heat coming from it is the catalyst!--You dont have much time to work with it!.---On my head it took 4-tries before I got a good-seal!--now you have to heat-it in an oven & check for a seal again as Alum. expands!.--your oven works good for this. set-it to 180 degrees preheat for 15min. & put her in, go have a sandwich.--After you remove shoot the head with your gun or a thermometer will do!. If temp. is good -Now check for leaks!--if it holds, wait for it to cool & do it again at room-temp. If it holds your ready to put it into use!.-(I always checked at 10-12lbs.)--just like a vacuum test leak!.--I learned that the inside seat must look as good as you can get the outside to look!--& the final Peening must hold the rivet Tight & SQUARE against its home-seat.--for a seal I used -(grey LOC-TITE--it is for HI-TEMP applications & a drop will do you!).---Again this is what workes for me, its not the olny way byfar!--Remember you will make your own tools for proper seating of nipples!.--hope this helps.---The Loc-tite needs 24hrs. to fully cure at temps.-50-& above,-I would not use the JB,-as for me the other was a better choice.----Richie

Cotten
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Re: Intake rivets

#7

Post by Cotten » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:34 pm

Richie!

My local P4gas eats Loctite.

Although I have found sealer in NOS Indian cylinders, I have never found evidence that H-D used one.
Instead, the seal was entirely 'mechanical', in that the shoulder of the nipple must tighten firm and flush upon its counterbore in the head, and the rivet must be upset to fill and seal its hole. 'Upset' meaning to expand its width by compressing its length, so the fit of the rivet to its bore must be as sweet as possible.
A conical head on the rivet makes it much, much easier.

.....Cotten

58flh
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Re: Intake rivets

#8

Post by 58flh » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:05 pm

Cotton----Well Im glad you told me bout the P-4 gas problem & rivets!.--I had done this last year when I replaced my guides.--The Loc-Tite I used was the -(grey Hi-temp to 650-degrees i believe)-I new the regular blue gets eaten-up!, Its running good still & holding so far.--How long Im going to find out :lol: . Thanks for the Heads-up!----Richie 8)

Cotten
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Re: Intake rivets

#9

Post by Cotten » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:26 pm

Richie!

I am not familiar with the "gray".
I only tested the common saccharin varieties.

Is it sweet?

....Cotten
PS: It is almost Memorial Day, and time to test the fuel again.

old.wrench
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Re: Intake rivets

#10

Post by old.wrench » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:03 pm

Maybe I can add a little to whats already been said. I don't know for sure, but I think the moco came out with repair "rivet" kit (27049-52 screw, 27048-52 nut, and cotter pin) because of the difficulty of properly peening the rivet with the head in place on the motor. The repair kit is an ugly little assembly with a 1/4"x28tpi "rivet" and an oversize special nut. I've seen 2 heads with the repair kit installed that had the nut inside the nipple! It looked O.K. from the outside but I'm sure it didn't flow good! If you replace with a real rivet with the head in place on the motor, your anvil needs to fit snug and have enough mass to be effective, but keep in mind, there isn't much working room. After experimenting with a couple of different anvils including the "cam action" type (which worked the best), I ended up making a little rivet peening press out of a small extra heavy-duty boiler clamp. It works good, but you need to prep the end of the rivet properly.

Having said all that, if you want to make life easy on yourself, just remove the head from the motor when you replace the rivet! It's so much easier and in the long run, probably faster. I definitely wouldn't recommend replacing the rivet by screwing an over-sized screw or bolt in the hole, I've repaired a head that had that treatment and then cracked, which required welding. I wish I could recommend a sealant, but I honestly don't know. What seems to work today may fail tomorrow due to the crap the refiners put in our "gasoline" !! Cotten and Richie have made good suggestions based on actual testing. Best off to try and get the best mechanical seal that you can instead of relying on sealants, but as has been pointed out, that can try your patience. Test it on the bench and after assembly!

58flh
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Re: Intake rivets

#11

Post by 58flh » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:15 pm

Cotton---Yes its delicious!---Now im going to be more -(WATCHING)-while running!---def. a saccarin variety!---Richie :!:

58flh
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Re: Intake rivets

#12

Post by 58flh » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:24 pm

Old-wrench!---When it is time for a nipple replacement, I sure agree that no sealer is the best!---& as you said (patience here is a must!). I already am looking at this being very TIME/dependent work!---I have never installed one without the GREY-LOC-TITE I explained above!--& even working with olny a drop of it,It will test your patience!. Cotton has mentioned that NIPPLE seating is the most HARDEST procedure to get correct!--& I totally agree!--Im glad that the readings & other procedures that men have used,-is in the K-BASE!--BUT COTTONS-VI, to me is to the point & how-to!---One day when my heads require nipple work--I will try to seal it the CORRECT-WAY!--no goober!---this will really test a mans patience!,as even with the sealent its not a one trick pony so to say!.---Respectfully RICHIE

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