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Very hard starting: manifold leak

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64duo
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Very hard starting: manifold leak

#1

Post by 64duo » Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:29 pm

64 FLH with Mallory Ign, 12 volt, S&S E carb.
This is a very hard starting cold blooded beast. This morning is a good example. 6000 kicks no go, only even popped once. Fuel is flowing, without carb cover I see lots of fuel squirting. Spark at plug wires. But when I pull plugs to see where all that fuel is going, the plugs which I would expect to be sopping wet, are totally bone dry. Where can that fuel go that makes it into the cyclinders but not getting the spark plugs wet at all, even after lots of throttle, primer kicks etc etc? Finally, I removed spark plugs and sguirted some fuel directly into the cylinders. Then it started. Any ideas? The top end has about 600 miles on it.
Jonathan



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Re: Very hard starting

#2

Post by Billy » Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:24 pm

Jonathan-

Intake Leak test time.. Can't draw fuel correctly w/leak.

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Re: Very hard starting

#3

Post by kell » Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:35 pm

How long have you had the bike, and how does it run when you get it started?
Testing for manifold leak is always advised.
When cold starting I never use the throttle. (I also have an E.) If your richener is working you should not have to use the throttle on startup, even to squirt the accelerator pump. But if you use the accelerator pump, do it only on the priming kicks. Then do your hot kick with the richener on; don't touch the throttle until the mother gets running. If you open up the throttle it won't start (cold).
Is your richener working? The carb sounds much different with the richener on, makes a sucking sound. Maybe your richener has a bit of debris in it. If you think that could be the problem, take the carb apart and use carb cleaner and compressed air to clean the richener passages and do the other circuits while you're at it. Also make sure the richener knob can pull out far enough to open it up. You'll hear the sucking sound when you kick, if the richener passage is open.

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Re: Very hard starting

#4

Post by 64duo » Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:24 am

Kell, Billy..
I've had the bike for almost a year. This last winter my friend & I redid the top end. We did leak test the system. It was good. It just has always been a bugger to start cold.
I even rolled down my hill thinking compression starting would work this morning, (a LONG hill) in 3rd gear, NO start. I pushed it another 3 blocks to his house where we poured gas directly into the spark plug hole. I just never realized the fuel (or excess fuel) didn't make it to the plugs.
This seems to be different than I would expect. I will use my pressure tester from Mbskeam to check again though. Just seems odd.

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Re: Very hard starting

#5

Post by 03Roadking » Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:44 pm

I don't want to send you off in the wrong direction and there are plenty of people here that know more than me. But I know for a fact an intake leak can happen at anytime hot or cold. I would start with the basics Intake check,(don't be in a hurry here let it set for a while see if it foams after letting it set for 10 or 15 Min's) Timing check, Carb check. Then if you have to look farther you did a top end are the valves adjusted right? I am having the opposite problem with my 62 One kick start but won't stay running, stay at it you will find it
03RKBubbles - was (

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Re: Very hard starting

#6

Post by 64duo » Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:32 pm

Well, off came the carb, off came the horn (to get to the carb bolts) on went Msbeams intake pressure tester. The intake manifold was perfectly sealed no leaks anywhere. Cotton, you were right-o, you can hear the air moving thru the exhaust and you can feel the air moving out the spark plug holes, I only popped the front intake tube to verify. Well the manifold is good.

Now I set the spark plugs and tested them with the intakes open, and WALA.......heres the back cylinder
bubbles1.jpg
and heres the front cylinder.........
bubbles2.jpg
needless to say BUBBLES.

Now these short threaded plugs (HD 3-4) dont get alot of tightening, but I used a new pair of plugs and gave it more tightening than I really wanted to, and that cut back on the BUBBLES almost entirely. Still some foam, just a very little. I look at the seat area of the heads where the plugs gasket seats against, looks smooth and ok, is there a way to dress this area? This has to have been a problem area in starting, not sure why it didn't make a big difference when it was hot, (the metal expands, I suppose).
Hooked it all back up and got it to go in 14 kicks. A vast improvement, from my earlier comments.
Any first hand experience in this plug gasket seal area?
Thanks Jonathan 64FLH
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Re: Very hard starting

#7

Post by 03Roadking » Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:59 am

Just my .02 but did you turn the engine over until the air leaked less out the valves and did it hold 15Lbs for at least a little while? Have you inspected the plug hole with a magnifying glass to see if they have cracks and this is off the top of my head and the ones that know more than me might say it's a bad idea so wait for some one else to comment on this but if you were to use a heavy wheel grease on the plug threads as a temporary sealer just to see if it starts easier it wouldn't last long but at least it would give you a clue if that is the starting problem

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Re: Very hard starting

#8

Post by Cotten » Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:14 am

I'm not a big fan of teflon tape,....but....
This is one circumstance where it might be the most practical solution.

At least it is a 'diagnostic'.

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Re: Very hard starting

#9

Post by 64duo » Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:55 am

The pressure tester that I bought needs a constant air source, disconnecting the air hose just bleeds out the air. I probably need to add a valve of some sort to hold the pressure and see if it holds at 15lbs. I did turn the engine, it was kinda fun to listen to the air go from the exhaust pipes to the plug holes and such.

The plugs, I guess, have just never been really wrenched on. Of course I was told "dont' overtighten" the plugs, being afraid of pulling the threads. So today, I have given it a quarter turn past easy tight and that stopped 95% of the air. Is there another product besides the standard crush washer that comes with modern plugs that may work better? How about the use of anti-seize, will that help? I suppose running the bike sucking air thru the plug holes added to my running LEAN. The cones were nearly white. I was told I needed a different jet in the S&S. Seems not.

Cotton, i'm running solids, so no hydraulics to check. last thing on the list to check is the timing, waiting to get a timing light and a clear timing hole plug.
Stay tuned.

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Re: Very hard starting

#10

Post by fourthgear » Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:21 pm

64 duo
Had to use Teflon tape on a 69 with duel plugs once and it worked out just fine, he still uses it to this day on that one plug. Ya need to do what ya need to do. Just don't over do it .

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