Fuel question

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Skip
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Fuel question

#1

Post by Skip » Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:29 am

I have been running 110 octane in my Pan all season...motor never sounded nor performed soooo good...regular not unleaded...I have not had the unleaded conversion done to my heads if that matters...my question, a guy told me that running that straight all the time will burn a hole in my pistons...True or not???...plugs and pipes are now both a brown color instead of the normal black...Thanks...

Skip



Cotten
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Re: Fuel question

#2

Post by Cotten » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:57 pm

No, Skip,..
But it will burn a hole in your wallet!
In general: The higher the octane, the cooler the burn,..
But advanced timing or a vacuum leak can still turn any fuel into a blast furnace.
"Unused" octane just goes out the exhaustpipe (except for flatties where in theory the extra cooling might decrease efficiency.)
I seriously doubt that even a 10:1 Panhead requires more than a true 98 octane. A cup of 110 added to pump gas will probably give as much benefit as running it straight. Its all about volatility.

Do you really think there is actually real live tetraethyl lead in it?

....Cotten

Sidecar
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Re: Fuel question

#3

Post by Sidecar » Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:49 pm

What is the cost on the 110 octane if you don't mind me asking ??
I used to mix 114 regular and 94 unleaded for 100 octane. Did the same thing and left me with lots of beer money in my pocket.

Skip
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Re: Fuel question

#4

Post by Skip » Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:59 pm

No, but one can dream...it is called leaded and for off road use only...it is only $4.59 a gallon...other than that the hottest I can find would be 92 at $3.39 a gallon.

They have 2 brands here in town...one called CAM II for 5.09 a gallon...my personal favorite...and one called Turbo Blue for 4.59 a gallon...everyone elses favorite...both 110 octane...both state for off road use only...up to a couple of years ago you could just pull up to the pump and pump it right in your tank...a friend of mine is a pilot and told me he could get the 114 to 125 octane if I wanted but they are MUCH higher, as you have to get them at the airport as opposed to the local gas station...Skip

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Re: Fuel question

#5

Post by Sidecar » Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:27 pm

The price isn't as bad as I thought it would be on the 110.

I used to buy the 114 leaded at a place called Universal Oil. One side of the pump was 114 leaded and the other side was alchohol. I haven't purchased this stuff for about 15 years though. They dropped the 114 leaded and started to pump unleaded 100+ octane. I don't remember what the exact octane rating was on the unleaded though.

Cotten;

The MSDS says that Turbo Blue & Cam II both have TEL.

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Re: Fuel question

#6

Post by mbskeam » Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:18 am

been runnin 89 on 8.9:1 and it seams to be okay. stock timing
here you can get 100 low lead at the airport... but I'm cheap, so I dont.

mbskeam

Skip
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Re: Fuel question

#7

Post by Skip » Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:27 pm

Mine ran ok on the 89 also...but, man, the sound of that motor on 110 is freakin amazing...and the preformance is like nothing before...was always afraid to run it but I was going to tear the heads off this winter for the first time so I thought what the hell...now I am considering not tearing it apart at all...Skip.

Sidecar
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Re: Fuel question

#8

Post by Sidecar » Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:52 pm

:-) Same reason I bought the 114 !!!!
I found that there wasn't anymore benefit to run more octane than my 100 mix though.

I put 114 in my boat when I sold it. Almost threw me out of the seat when I mashed it. You should have seen the eyes on the new owner. It sold itself in 3 seconds flat. It even surprised my brother who was standing on the shore.

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Re: Fuel question

#9

Post by fourthgear » Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:08 pm

Since we are talking about fuels , I always use high test (92 oct. or what ever )when fueling the Panhead and every other Harley I know of, how old do you think that stuff is ? I mean how many people use it ? How many trucks and cars use it and if not many , do the stabilize it or does it just sit there and get shitty?Could that old gas be part of some of the problems with some motors ?

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Re: Fuel question

#10

Post by Sidecar » Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:00 pm

Since we are talking about fuels , I always use high test (92 oct. or what ever )when fueling the Panhead and every other Harley I know of, how old do you think that stuff is ? I mean how many people use it ? How many trucks and cars use it and if not many , do the stabilize it or does it just sit there and get shitty?Could that old gas be part of some of the problems with some motors ?
I have been thinking the same thing myself. I haven't been able to find anyone who uses anything other than the lowest octane unless they are on a bike. There is at least one gas station around here that makes my bike run worse on their high test. I am going to drop to 89 to see what happens. ( I have always run the highest pump octane that I could find. )

fourthgear
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Re: Fuel question

#11

Post by fourthgear » Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:57 pm

I would wounder about the 89 too, I wounder if I use the lowest and add an octane booster . I have the unleaded conversion in the heads ( I know I should be scared ,but have had no problems in the past) and wounder about just using the low stuff with out adding anything . I guess I will have to try a little and find out. You never know.

Skip
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Re: Fuel question

#12

Post by Skip » Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:40 pm

I am going to continue to run the hot stuff until I can no longer afford it...fourthgear you speak of the unleaded conversation as if were bad...is it??...was considering going that way myself this winter...Man I love hearing the pan in the morning going through the vallies with hot gas and shot gun pipes...it doesn't get any better than that...Skip

fourthgear
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Re: Fuel question

#13

Post by fourthgear » Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:10 pm

The unleaded conversion of the valve seats in stock pan heads are frowned on by some, Just like Kreem in fuel tanks, but I have had no bad experiences with either of them and will cont. to use as needed . This is not the first Pan that I have had the unleaded seats put in and know of some here that have had problems . I think , like any thing else , if done correctly, they have a good service life , which is what we look for out of any work done or part .You take a chance with any out sourcing of work , most of us can't or do not have the proper tools to do it all .

Cotten
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Re: Fuel question

#14

Post by Cotten » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:55 am

Just so we can sort out the apples from the oranges,
If you tune for straight regular gas, and then fill up with an ethanol blend with other unknowns, then suddenly you will find things have gone quite lean on you. It takes a larger volume of the blends to give the same energy as regular, even though the blends are of a higher octane rating. If you have a Linkert, you can easily adjust for it. If you have a modern carb, be prepared to swap jets as often as your underwear.
With reference to "unleaded conversions",
Hardened seats were a fad.
It converted thousands of Pan's heads to scrap for no better reason than owners were told they had to.

With reference to 'Kreem",
I have a set of tanks where it has survived quite well. But that was the "Kreem" of the early 1980's. Just like the gasoline, its formula has changed.
Considering the risks, it is best to go with no sealer at all.
(Pro welders still exist!)

This discussion centers on the fuels we must deal with.
Most of us will not find it convenient to buy five gallon buckets of racing fuel and only go in circles that allow us to get back to the bucket.
So nearly all of us face the grief of varied blends and additives from the local pumps. They are digestive, somewhat corrosive, and definitely marginal for octane rating. Truly P for gas.
But we must learn to live with them, since alternatives are neither practical nor economical.
From that perspective, it makes no sense whatsovever to cram in hardened seats and then install high compression pistons. It is just as defeating to cam up for a firebreathing powerplant and then detune it with tall sprockets.
How peculiar that we all revere these machines as icons of engineering, and then insist upon butchering their innards and doseing them with snake oils.

Its fun I guess.

...Cotten

fourthgear
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Re: Fuel question

#15

Post by fourthgear » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:33 pm

Cotten
I would like to know what you think about the age of the fuel we are using (high test ) and what effects its having on the motors. I think we all have had bad experiences with old / bad fuel ( don't drain or treat your lawn mower fuel for the winter and see how it runs after sitting there for even a few months)and maybe we are having them now and are not aware of it . I know part of the tune-ability of your motor depends on how good the fuel is we put in there .
Now as regards to unleaded seats , you can keep the bronze there for authentic reasons and they do work , but how many upper end jobs do you want to pay for and how often do you want to take the heads off to re-seat the valves to keep it that way. There are good reasons that the new HDs go so long with out even touching any part of the motor , (just normal tune ups )and modern valves and seats ,not to mention o- rings, needle bearings and sleeved cyl. to name a few. I don't think of changing mine over to more modern materials is turning my parts into junk or scrap ,but upgrading the motor to extend the service life and extend the time between rebuilds . I find in my old age that I want to ride more than work on her and I'm sure many customers think the same way.

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