Ethanol for the old pan.

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HARLEYMAN53
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Ethanol for the old pan.

#1

Post by HARLEYMAN53 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:56 am

I am thinking of trying to gas up my Panhead with 50% 95 unledded and 50% ethanol. have eny of you eny experience of this fuel mixture?
Thanks.



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Re: Ethanol for the old pan.

#2

Post by 58flh » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:03 pm

In my part of the east-coast they have introduced 10% into certain fill stations!--(Stay-Away)---First of all you add a 50% mixwith the 50% unleaded--BAD-RUNNER!--YOU dont have a CARB. set-up for that & the viton seat&needle combo.,you will kiss goodbuy & quickly!--Next with that 50-split the flame-front will be a slower burn!(timing will have to be retarded)-It dont belong in a street motor,--unless the motor is set-up for alcohol!--hell I dont even like the hi-test unleaded shit were forced to use!--I always run Sunoco-94-octane, with a lead additive & 2oz. of MMV-oil to every 5 gallons(fill-up). When I rip my heads off every-other year for inspection That combo. works great!-NO carbon-ridge a finger can swipe away!--upper cyl. are clean-pistons are clean & I run on the rich-side. Hope this answers your curosity!--IF MOTOR IS NOT SET-UP FOR ALCOHOL--DONT USE IT!(NOT at that 50-50MIX ANYWAY)----Richie

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Re: Ethanol for the old pan.

#3

Post by 1950Panhead » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:14 pm

Some questions first,
Why do you want to do this?
Why the mix gas and ethanol?
E85 or 100% ethanol?

Vehicles that are running on E85 require 42% more fuel to get the proper fuel/air mixture.
To get a panhead to run on E85 increase the main jet size by 42% and it may run.
Ethanol attacks rubber, the only rubber I can think of is the line seals from the tank to the carb.
Cotten will address the floats.
I've never heard of this being done for a panhead before which means you are heading into experimental teritory and will have to deal with issues (if they occur).
A gallon of gas has more energy and can do more work then a gallon of ethanol.
Jerry

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Re: Ethanol for the old pan.

#4

Post by Cotten » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:39 pm

Harleyman53!

If you are intending to run such a high ethanol blend through your original Linkert,
you will be faced with trial-and-error to find a larger fixed jet orifice that will supply the larger volume of fuel necessary. Ordinary #10-32 screws can be center-drilled to a selection larger than .078", hopeing that you will quickly find one that meters in the range that allows your highspeed needle some sensitivity.
Your fuel mileage will drop accordingly; You most likely will not be able to switch back to ordinary fuel without rejetting.

It goes without saying that the float must be resistant to modern blends.

Cold starting will most likely require more effort, and the motor will take longer to reach its optimum temperature. A higher compression motor benefits.

Blending ethanol into petroleum fuels is folly for many other reasons as well, but mostly political ones.

Let us know how it goes!
(And a specific gravity for the fuel if you can...)

....Cotten
PS: Mike Brown ran his Pan on homebrew in the 70's, and published it in his "Motor Fuel Cookbook".
But it is still to be avoided if at all possible.

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Re: Ethanol for the old pan.

#5

Post by kitabel » Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:03 pm

the flame-front will be a slower burn!(timing will have to be retarded.

Slower burn needs more advance, not less.

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Re: Ethanol for the old pan.

#6

Post by Cotten » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:27 pm

A caution note on jetting, Folks:

A quick review of Brown's Alcohol Motor Fuel Cookbook suggests a 40% increase rule of thumb as well.

But please be aware that flow through an orifice does not increase with its diameter in a linear fashion, it increases geometrically:
A circle diameter multiplied by 142% gives a circle with twice the area.

This ignores the length variable of course.
Home-cut jets must be calibrated entirely to themselves.

....Cotten

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Re: Ethanol for the old pan.

#7

Post by 1950Panhead » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:11 pm

Yep, area = pi*r*r = 3.14 *.039 *.039 = .00477594 *1.42 = .0067818348
Use .093" for E85
Jerry

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Re: Ethanol for the old pan.

#8

Post by HARLEYMAN53 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:27 pm

Good to see that you all are on the tip of your toes!!
Why I´m thinking of this is of course the gas price in Sweden. Right now over 15.00 sek/liter =0.6417gallons.
So when i fill the pan it will cost me 200 sek=29,15 usd! that´s why.

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Re: Ethanol for the old pan.

#9

Post by 1950Panhead » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:42 pm

For the American readers thats $5.80/gallon.

Sweden53,
Do they sell E85 in Sweden?
Price of E85 in Sweden?
Jerry

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Re: Ethanol for the old pan.

#10

Post by HARLEYMAN53 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:17 am

Yeas, we do sell E85 here. It cost/liter right now 10.30 sek. i do run my vw golf (rabbit) on E85 only and it works fine. I have heard that the unledded 95 octane is been taking of the market so thats a bit bad for the old pan. And like i pointed before the regular cost around 15+ sek/liter. The diesel is like 0.30sek more than gas.

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Re: Ethanol for the old pan.

#11

Post by 1950Panhead » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:34 pm

If E85 is 2/3 the price of gas but you have to burn 42% more to get the same results that means it is cheaper to run the pan on gas.
Do all the cars in Sweden run on E85?
Have all the old cars in Sweden been converted to E85?
Jerry

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Re: Ethanol for the old pan.

#12

Post by Cotten » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:03 pm

Harleyman53!

If your local gasoline changes to a lower octane rating,
some octane can be regained by adding up to 10% ethanol.

But at expense of not only the previously mentioned digestivity and corrosion issues,
the expense of the ethanol as well. In the USA, it took inscrutable government subsidies can reduce its price to where it can be put in a filling station pump. Remove substantial fuel mileage, and the economics is a poor gamble.

But if you have a plentiful source of un-taxed alcohol of any sort,
and it is totally rectified, meaning nearly zero water in it,
then it can be mixed.

That's the expensive part of fuel ethanol, as even the sweetest of the first still drippin's are still five percent water.
However, without mixing in petroleum products, it has a 95 octane rating right out of the jug!

The problem with running 95%Etoh/5%H20 is achieving a cold start.
The motor may never fully warm up with full finnage, especially in cool weather.

....Cotten

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