1959 stem nut sequence

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bigbox
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1959 stem nut sequence

#1

Post by bigbox » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:16 am

Hi, My inquiry relates to the triple tree on my 59 Pan. It seems at every turn I find something that was used to keep her on the road back in the day without regards to originality.
The top triple is from a 1960 as were the two piece handlebar. I have seen the nut as shown in the pictures in other documentation and I think its from a adjustable or steering damper model. What I am seeking is the proper steering stem nut, is there a locking nut that goes under the top triple tree, is there a washer that sits under there as well and is the flat tabbed type washer for this model. Nearly there, is there a domed cover that fits over the entire lot as I have seen a nut with two screw holes in as the top nut. This would then tidy up the big gap that is in the chrome tins that go over the new triple tree.
one last question, i have searched and is this the correct kicker for my model, it was hitting on the tool box when I kicked it through.
I appreciate any info to my long winded inquiry, maybe its just me but I have searched the knowledge base and whilst the info is good, its doing my head in.
Regards
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bigbox
Posts: 114
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Re: 1959 stem nut sequence

#2

Post by bigbox » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:37 am

Is this what I am after? I don't need the bearings though
http://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/p2157/buy ... k-cup-kit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

VPH-D
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Re: 1959 stem nut sequence

#3

Post by VPH-D » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:28 pm

You need p/n 48330-48A nut and dust shield on the fork stem, under the top tree to adjust the neck bearing.
The stem nut you have is used with the early steering damper. If you have that assembly installed on the bike then ok. If all you have is the stem nut, change it to 45718-60 nut, along with 45717-63 lock tab.
VPH-D

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Re: 1959 stem nut sequence

#4

Post by RUBONE » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:40 pm

No, that isn't the nut for the '59 only cover. No one reproduces it and originals are pretty much non-existent. Why not just use the steering damper? Most units came with it as stock.
and are you sure you have the right top tree for a swingarm model? The early rigid one is slightly different in the area where the nut and bearings sit due to the offset of the stem.
The nut part number is 45718-59, the one you link is the 45718-60 type used with the aluminum nacelle.
The one year only cover is 45719-59.
As I said, the steering damper was an available option and many dealers ordered with them since all previous models had them, so it is still considered correct.

And no, that kicker arm isn't even H-D, but is some aftermarket item. And the pedal is the '63 type. You need the -54 kicker arm and the early bicycle pedal type kicker.
Robbie

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Re: 1959 stem nut sequence

#5

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:32 am

bigbox wrote:Hi, My inquiry relates to the triple tree on my 59 Pan. It seems at every turn I find something that was used to keep her on the road back in the day without regards to originality.
The top triple is from a 1960 ...
Underneath the triple tree held in the hand you may find casting number 56120-60 and that number was first used for 1960 models. However, the bolt in the top of the tree may indicate 1965 or later. The bolt was first there for 1965 for a horn bracket but I'm not sure how long the bracket stayed in that location. At some later point the bracket was moved to the lower tree.

I’ve seen a couple of similar AM kicker arms, with a bolt below the starter crank shaft. Some AM kicker arms like that have the manufacturer’s name on the inside.
Eric

bigbox
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Re: 1959 stem nut sequence

#6

Post by bigbox » Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:22 am

Thanks for the info gents, I think I was looking too far into it. I now realise that there is only one steering stem nut, I was under the impression that there was another nut under the top triple, this put slight pressure on the bearings, then another lock nut on top of the triple, The picture I put up are of the new top triple I got from the States and the old one I had in my hand. It seem the previous owner has a mixture of 60 parts on the bike but 58 is stamped all over the frame and swing arm. The triple I have in my hand is as Rubone has told me previously is from a 60's model bike. I have the two part bars that go with it, my next mission is to find a single reinforced set of bars for this bike, I hope that is not going to be too hard here in Australia. Boone has most of the parts I need and it takes about two weeks for them to arrive.
The nut (steering damper type)is the one that was originally on the bike when I bought it and is now holding it all together until i can put it together completely.
Anyway thanks again, its all fun isn't it.

PS, I have just viewed the diagram again and its obvious omision is the locking washer....oh my head,

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Re: 1959 stem nut sequence

#7

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:47 am

bigbox wrote:It seem the previous owner has a mixture of 60 parts on the bike but 58 is stamped all over the frame and swing arm.
Your frame appears to be a 1958–64 style so part of the reason you find suffix -58 in several places is because those pieces were first used for 1958 models. Upper rear sections may have 47645-58. Lower left rear section may have 47653-58. Lower right-hand rear section may have 47651-58.

Stamped on the right-hand side of the frame top engine mount you may find a letter and a number although not necessarily in that order. The letter indicates month of frame manufacture and the number indicates year.

On the left side of the steering head I see two round marks and immediately below them appears to be a partially flat surface. Stamped on that flat surface is there a small letter followed by either three of four numbers? If so can you please tell us what the letter is because it may help with model year of the frame.

I can’t tell what year your swingarm is but the round-tube styles for Big Twins were used for 1958–72 models. Your right-hand rear section may have 47606 58 outside the axle clip and that number was used for mid-1958–72.

Depending on a few things, the number on your left axle clip may be inside or outside. At least two different numbers were used outside. The second of them was later moved inside and at least two more different numbers were also used inside. If you post a photo of the left axle clip I’ll try to ID the swingarm further if you want.

Regarding the third picture in your latest post, I recommend you do not buy the publication that contains it. The book was mentioned on the CAImag forum and below is part of what I said about it in May:
‘I requested that book via a local library a while back, scanned a few pages and made some notes. Of particular concern to me is the lack of correct ID regarding certain things. Page 63 shows what is indicated to be a set of 1960–64 Glide triple trees. Wrong. The bottom tree in the picture has a padlock plate, first introduced for 1969. Also shown is what is alleged to be a set of 1949–59 trees. Wrong. Apparently the author is unaware of the change for 1958. Etc.

It may be that the author was trying to demonstrate the difference between the early top tree and the style introduced for 1960 but his choice of parts leaves him open to criticism and may lead to confusion for people trying to do a correct restoration of a certain year because some people will now think the padlock plate was originally present for 1960–64 when in fact it was not.

Page 71 says two swingarms were used during the Duo-Glide years. Here the book is again incorrect, and in the extreme. My research tells me at least seven were used for Duo-Glides. It’s obvious there was practically no research done regarding the swingarms. There were at least two casting numbers used on the outside of the left arm/axle clip but according to the book the left-hand casting numbers were always on the inside. Wrong.

Page 71 also indicates the stock length for a Panhead shock absorber is 12”. I do not think so.’
Eric

bigbox
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Re: 1959 stem nut sequence

#8

Post by bigbox » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:56 am

Hi Eric,

I am having trouble posting pictures but,
Right side swing arm 47606-58
also looks like 47653-58 on the left section
Lower triple looks like 457 something something-48
Top engine mount.... is what looks like 3K
I didn't get to look at the left side of the steering head I will when I get home this weekend.
pictures when I get a better internet connection and Eric I appreciate the assistance.

Paul

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Re: 1959 stem nut sequence

#9

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:09 pm

Cheers, Paul. Right-hand axle clip had 47606 58 for mid-1958–72. According to Bruce Palmer’s 1937–64 restoration book the number for early-1958 was EX2039 so apparently H-D changed the right-hand clip very little over the years. Several changes were made to the left clip with some being very minor and others being more noticeable.

Lower left rear section with 47653-58 sounds good. That number was used for 1958 through at least 1968 models and it appears to have also been used for 1969. It seems the section itself changed for 1970 and the number apparently then became 47654 65. I have a few examples of 47654 65 but I do not know why the suffix became 65 instead of 70. One of the changes to that left section around 1970 was the brake hose loop which was a slightly different design than the earlier type and the loop itself was moved upwards about one inch.

Lower triple may have 45705-48.

Top engine mount with 3K indicates the frame was made in 1963 November so it would be a 1964 model frame. Sometimes the characters are in the opposite order as per the example below. Notice the 3 is a certain sans serif style and it has a flat top. Notice the K is also sans serif:

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Stamped on the left side of the steering head I expect you’ll find one of the following three letters: B, C or D. But they are small and sometimes hard to spot. After the letter you should find either three or four numbers. The ID on the steering head is known as additional original component identifying numbers, aka anti-theft numbers, and they first appeared for 1962 models.
Eric

bigbox
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Re: 1959 stem nut sequence

#10

Post by bigbox » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:19 am

Thanks Eric,

I suppose now the million dollar question is what year is the bike, do I just go off the motor. It makes it hard to identify and buy the correct parts to bring it back to some semblence of original..

On another note it has not got the tab on the left side for the brake tee for the hydraulic brake near the running board.

If you don't mind me asking where do you get parts from, I guess we are lucky in OZ as Boone sends out here and that has been my biggedst help, I also get parts from Rusty in Brisvages but he sometimes needs promting to get back to you although his last reply to me was he has been not well.

Anyway thanks

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Re: 1959 stem nut sequence

#11

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:04 pm

No H-D Panhead originally had a frame number and all Pans originally went by engine serial number (SN) as far as model year is concerned so if your SN is authentic then your bike remains a 59 model even though the frame appears to be a 1964 model. Panheads for 1962–65 had the additional ID on the left side of the steering head as I mentioned above and sometimes licensing authorities make mention of that ID as a means of frame recognition.

Underneath the trans case you may find indented casting number 121-35. You may also find a date code consisting of a letter and a number or maybe just all numbers. That code will indicate the month and year the case was cast so let us know what you find.

These days I don’t buy many parts for my Pan and currently it isn’t my main road bike as I mostly ride my Evo. Some time ago I bought a few Pan parts from Pacific H-D in Mt Wilson but I can’t remember what I got so it probably wasn't major stuff. I also bought some small bits and pieces from HD Development in Melbourne over the years. From Yesteryear Motorcycles in Captain’s Flat in NSW I purchased two used genuine H-D ribbed tool boxes and I bought two genuine used Panhead cylinders from Richardson's H-D in Tasmania several years ago.
Eric

bigbox
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Re: 1959 stem nut sequence

#12

Post by bigbox » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:29 pm

Thanks for all the good info Eric, I will check my bike when I get home on the weekend, I live in barracks through the week and the net is absolutely ordinary. I will also put up pics to make it easier
Thanks and regards

bigbox
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Re: 1959 stem nut sequence

#13

Post by bigbox » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:47 am

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Hi Eric

The numbers under the transmission case is as you say, 121-35 and the frame number is 47561-35 (I think)
I had a bit of a disappointment today, I pulled the forks off only one had oil and one had seals but I washed all the parts in brake clean and removed the crud and I am confident I can replace all the parts and make them good as gold. I just wish I was home through the week, not just weekends. Still having trouble posting with my ipad
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Re: 1959 stem nut sequence

#14

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:54 am

Trans case casting number 121-35 was used for Knuckleheads, U-series Flatheads and 1948–early-1964 Panheads. (Mid/later-64 Pans had 34703 64 and 1965 Pans had 34703 65.)

Date code under the trans looks like F 9 and that code was used for cases cast in June of 1939 and 1949. To the right of the date code you’ll notice an indented 1 but I don’t know what it indicates. The best guess we have regarding the 1 is that it may be an inspector’s mark done at the foundry but we don’t know for sure. Some cases have a 2 in that position, some have 2E and some have 1E.

There are at least three differences between cases cast in June 39 and June 49:
1. For the mounting bolt underneath on the right-hand side the insert will probably be steel if the case is 49 as my research so far indicates the insert changed to steel from bronze around late-1943 or early-44. (Bruce Palmer told me via email last October that the change started in 1942 and should have been finished by the end of 1943.)
2. The first case below was cast in June 1939. The bosses indicated by black arrows were originally rounded through 1946 models so if your bosses are rounded then F 9 indicates casting in June 1939.

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Next photo shows flattened bosses on a case cast in August 1950:

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The bosses were flattened as original, either by design or machining, for 1947-later models to accommodate the (hand) gear shifter lever which was changed from pointing up to pointing down. However, flattened bosses aren’t a definite means of ID because some people flattened the bosses on some early units. If your bosses are flattened then you could check the insert I mentioned above.

3. Re the boss indicated by my red arrow, that boss and the other lower left stud boss to the rear were beefed up in 1949, sometime after March but apparently by June at the latest and you’ll see the difference when compared to the 39 case.

The number you found on the frame is probably 47591-35. It’s a forging number and I imagine it is in the blue rectangle in the picture below. However, the ID you’re chasing may be in the red rectangle:

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In that red rectangle you may find one letter followed by either three or four numbers but if any characters are present they will be small so look closely. We don’t need to know the numbers but the letter may be B, C or D and any one of those three letters would help confirm your frame is a 1964 model, given the frame is the 1958–64 style.
Eric

bigbox
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Re: 1959 stem nut sequence

#15

Post by bigbox » Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:26 am

Thanks for all the great info Eric, it's surprising how enlightening it is when things are explained.

Thanks again

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