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'52 Pan is suddenly hard to kick, and engine makes a rattle!

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awander
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'52 Pan is suddenly hard to kick, and engine makes a rattle!

#1

Post by awander » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:04 pm

My '52 has been running great for the last 2 years, other than a hesitation or cough that occasionally occurs while running with slight roll-on of throttle.

A few days ago, while riding, i thought the engine sounded noisier, and I found a good place to pull over, but then it sounded normal again. I initiallythought maybe one of teh headers had come loose and I was hearing direcyt exhaust, but they both seem tight.

Today I went to start the bike, and I noticed that at the top of teh stroke, it was MUCH harder than usual to kick it over. ALmost like there was a detent it had to get through, and tehn the kick stroke became easier.

It took forever to start it(which is also not usual) and when I did get it running, it sounded like a hammering was going on in teh engine.

I am going to start looking into it this evening, but I was wondering if anyone has suggestions as to what it could be? the only thing that springs to my mind is that a pushrod has loosened up a LOT(the bike has solid lifters, with aluminum pushrods)
Last edited by awander on Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: '52 Pan is suddenly hard to kick over, and engine makes a ra

#2

Post by NightShift » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:18 pm

C',mon Awander,
You just answered your own question.

Put some steels in and hope you didn't stick a valve.

Here's hopin' for ya!

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Re: '52 Pan is suddenly hard to kick over, and engine makes a ra

#3

Post by Ohio-Rider » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:29 pm

I'll second that!

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Re: '52 Pan is suddenly hard to kick over, and engine makes a ra

#4

Post by awander » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:41 pm

Thanks-any idea on where to get steel pushrods that will work with the solid lifters in this bike? I am not sure how to spec them.

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Re: '52 Pan is suddenly hard to kick over, and engine makes a ra

#5

Post by steve_wood » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:36 pm

PS: That slight hesitation/cough could be a vacuum leak. I had the same thing on mine. Turned out to be a slight leak between the carb and the manifold. Hand-lapped the joint and the problem went away.

Might want to take a look at that...

steve

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Re: '52 Pan is suddenly hard to kick over, and engine makes a ra

#6

Post by mbskeam » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:02 am

yep....
real loose pushrods WILL make it hard to kick over

has to do with valve timming, this lets more pressure build sooner,ie compression... as the valve closes sooner....etc, etc

had this happen to me before....

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Re: '52 Pan is suddenly hard to kick over, and engine makes a ra

#7

Post by awander » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:17 am

Well, I opened up the pushrod tubes, and the rear exhaust pushrod fell out.

It was still hard to kick over-just at the beginning of the stroke, though.

So I pulled the kicker cover off, and found that the "Starter Gear Oil Deflector" had gotten bnt and was interfering with the starter gears. I bent it back to just above the push rod bearing, and reassembled. Now it kicked over like normal.

So then, i went to reinstall the rear exhaust pushrod, and discovered that there was no way I could adjust the lifter enough to make it work-the pushrod went WAY into the head before it contacted the rocker.

This was the first time I pulled a head without taking the engine out of the frame, and it took me about 2-1/2 hours.

The good news is, I DON'T have a stuck valve.

The BAD news is:
MVC-012S.JPG
The valve seat is completely out of the head.

It also did a little damage to the top of the piston:
MVC-014S.JPG
Needless to say, I also pulled the jug-I eased it up with the piston at the top of the stroke, and tried to stuff rags underneath the cylinder, to catch any of the metal particles that might find their way out the bottom as I pulled the cylinder off of the piston.

The wrist pin was held in place by a teflon button at each end-the piston is marked "S&S" and "TRW 2800" inside the dome.

To my untrained eye, the inside wall of the cylinder, and the outside of the piston look ok. The only damage seems to be the "dent" in the top of the piston.

I am wondering where to go to get the valve seat fixed....
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Re: '52 Pan is suddenly hard to kick over, and engine makes a ra

#8

Post by doug_heisel » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:35 am

well if you were in northern Mo or southern Ia I'd know just the place.

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Re: '52 Pan is suddenly hard to kick over, and engine makes a ra

#9

Post by Ripley/Fla » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:52 am

I feel your pain! At least it wasn't one of my pumps!

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Re: '52 Pan is suddenly hard to kick over, and engine makes a ra

#10

Post by awander » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:03 am

Ripley/Fla wrote:I feel your pain! At least it wasn't one of my pumps!
Heh-heh!

How's your bike doing?

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Re: '52 Pan is suddenly hard to kick over, and engine makes a ra

#11

Post by Ripley/Fla » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:59 am

I don't want to hijack this subject. I'll catch you later.

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Re: '52 Pan is suddenly hard to kick over, and engine makes a ra

#12

Post by awander » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:15 pm

I'd appreciate any info from those who know, on how hard it is to properly install valve seats in a Pan head(and do it properly).

Should I be looking to a local machine shop, find an older Harley mechanic, or???

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Re: '52 Pan is suddenly hard to kick over, and engine makes a ra

#13

Post by 59FL » Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:15 pm

It's a job that IMO is best left to a competent professional. It will require a precision bore and a press fit of aprox. .008" 75% or more of the work comes after the seat is installed.

A local machine shop is fine if they are tooled properly. The only thing application specific about valve and seat work is some of the tooling.

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Re: '52 Pan is suddenly hard to kick over, and engine makes a ra

#14

Post by NightShift » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:01 pm

Wow Andy. True Bummer.

But don't blame the headgasket just cause it blowed too.

Even warped heads ain't the smokin gun, just another dead body, like the hammered pushrod.

And don't jump to throwing money at a losers game like pressed hard seats until the hardware is clean enough to inspect!

Sumpthin' lit the fuse. Look REAL close.
Like where hesitations and coughs come from seems a good place.

We are with you.

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Re: '52 Pan is suddenly hard to kick over, and engine makes a ra

#15

Post by Bosheff » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:56 pm

Putting seats in a panhead is not that difficult a job. Taking them out, is considerably more difficult. To remove them(Stock seats), they must be machined out. In the old days this operation was known as "fly cutting". This was because the seats were some sort of alloy, possibly broze of some sort. Now on a shovel, one just welds a bead around the inside diameter of the seat and the heat will usually loosen the seat enough that with a little persuasion from a slide hammer, with expanding jaws, the seat will come right out. A shovel has some sort of steel seat. To put seats (steel) in a pan or shovel, one heats the cylinder head to about 350* thoroughly in an oven, and cools the seat (iron) thoroughly in a freezer and installs the seat in the head. It should take minimal persuasion, but it is important that the seat goes in squarely, and seats firmly on the seat shelf without gauling the the aluminum surrounding it. The mating surface in the head must be properly prepared to receive the seat. The whole idea is to have the proper interference fit between the cylinder head bore, and the seat. If preparation is proper, and attention to detail is followed, the seat should not leave its duty station. I'm sure I have not covered it all, but that is the basic theory. Feel free to correct or add if one feels the need.

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