shake rattle and roll

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Rain Man
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shake rattle and roll

#1

Post by Rain Man » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:04 pm

the 65 just makes too much noise going down the road. I've tried valve adjustment. still the same. when your sitting and the idle gets real slow you can hear a clatter. I'm betting on a piston problem. You can ride this bike all day long. but it's starting to make me a little nervous. Whataya think?
Ray



Bosheff
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Re: shake rattle and roll

#2

Post by Bosheff » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:15 pm

Letting it idle real low is hard on the rods, crank pin and roller bearings.

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Re: shake rattle and roll

#3

Post by NightShift » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:35 pm

Dear Ray,

Piston slap makes noise when you start up cold, but gets quiet when it warms up no problem.

65 Pans had hydraulic lifters that adjust themselves. You dont have aluminium pushrods do you?

Just asking respectful,

Hauula Pan
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Re: shake rattle and roll

#4

Post by Hauula Pan » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:27 am

OK this may sound stupid but how much gas is in your tanks? When the tanks get low engine noise gets amplified quite a bit, running at too low of an idle will destroy your wrist pins and rod bearings. People like the thump the low idle gives, but it will tear things up. Are you running solid lifters? If so toss the aluminum pushrods and pay the extra for steel ones. The old Pans are pretty forgiving and will run quite a while with worn bearings and wrist pins and even a bit of piston slap, but they won't go forever. Try & determine if the noise is worse under load or when you let off that will help determine if you have a bearing or wrist pin worn. Of course you can always just take the muffler off and the other noises will go away, Ha Ha.

Rain Man
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Re: shake rattle and roll

#5

Post by Rain Man » Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:59 am

I only let it idle down to hear what it sounded like. but when i'm running down the road, just rideing normal she has an upper end clatter. I had the engine built about 5 or 10 thousand ago-stock except for an A grind and a super e. someone suggested to check my front gear on the primary to see if it was loose. said it could cause that kind of noise. doesn't sound right but i guess i'll check it just the same. I'm running stock hydralics and aluminum push rods.


Ray

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Re: shake rattle and roll

#6

Post by Cotten » Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:27 am

Ray!

The combination of aluminum pushrods and hydraulics strikes me strange, but none the less,...

An Andrews A grind cam will NOT keep hydraulics filled at low idle no matter what Mr. Andrews claims.

Don't feel all alone. I got burned bad by one on a customer's machine.

Get the damn thing out of there before you blow the right case.
Or go the cheap route with a set of solid slugs.

....Cotten

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Re: shake rattle and roll

#7

Post by panz4ever » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:14 pm

Do your lids have the felt glued in. Think that might increase noise at idle?

Rain Man
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Re: shake rattle and roll

#8

Post by Rain Man » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:04 am

the felts were there when I capped it. Hey Cotten, any suggestions on which cam to run with those hydralics.

Ray

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Re: shake rattle and roll

#9

Post by Cotten » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:59 pm

Ray!

My book says 25523-56 for the Victory FLH cam.

What's weird is that it lists it for '56-'65 FLHs.
And the book also lists the 'standard' FL cam 25523-48 for '48-'65, and 1955 FLH models.

I thought the inboard journal changed in '58 for the needle bearing.
Or at least that is what the cams have always told me.
(As well as the needle bearings that couldn't take just one more thou of clearance.)

I'm sure there are modern hydraulic-compatible cams, but I'm no longer up on the subject.
Long story:
The last one I remember was a Crane perhaps fifteen years ago, for a '66 Chubble, and I had to relieve the idler gear.
And that machine spit a piece of a valve guide out the muffler after rattling for a few thousand miles:
The heads had fresh seats installed to blueprint spec. The cam grind assumed the seats would have been cut deeper at some time, so the valves knicked each other perhaps once, sending the exhaust sideways enough to crack a chip out of the guide!
So I put in a new guide and sunk the seats on purpose..


A set of Colony slugs would be a lot quicker, easier, and cheaper than a cam swap, but I'm still confused that you have aluminum pushrods with hydraulics.
When did they start making them?

....Cotten

Rain Man
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Re: shake rattle and roll

#10

Post by Rain Man » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:53 am

Cotten, I may be confusing the aluminum push rods for another bike. When I get home next week I'll check it and let you know.

Thanks Ray

lockdoc
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Re: shake rattle and roll

#11

Post by lockdoc » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:02 am

Cotten, I'm confused with your comment on aluminum pushrods and hydraulics. Can you elaborate? My 65 has had aluminum pushrods from Colony and hydros since I have had it. Ironically I also run a Crane cam that I had to relieve the idler for. I have a few thousand on this setup now and still very quiet running.

BUT, if I remember correctly the pushrods came with a Colony solid conversion kit. It was suggested that I use hydros with my cam so I took the slugs out and put the hydros back in.

Cotten
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Re: shake rattle and roll

#12

Post by Cotten » Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:25 am

lockdoc!

As I posted previously, my experience is pretty dated.
But traditionally all aftermarket aluminum pushrods used a different thread for the adjustor than OEM, and all came with adjustors for a solid slug.

Perhaps they are available now with interchangeable threads,.. it wouldn't surprise me.

But a solid slug adjustor could never be used with an OEM hydraulic unit.

They don't fit.

...Cotten

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Re: shake rattle and roll

#13

Post by PanPal » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:50 pm

The Andrews J grind will work with your Hydraulics. It is similar to the FLH cam.

lockdoc
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Re: shake rattle and roll

#14

Post by lockdoc » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:57 am

Cotten, just to keep you uodated here is a pic. It comes with stock size pushrods with adjusters. They just add slugs and springs to replace the hydro units. Can't find a pic of the colony kit I had but it is like the first pic with the pushrods in the second pic. BTW, the second pic is of the Sifton aluminum pushrods for Panheads.

Image

Image

Cotten
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Re: shake rattle and roll

#15

Post by Cotten » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:37 pm

locdoc!

The first pic are not for hydraulics.
Those are old fashioned slugs with idiot springs.

The second pic makes the adjustors hard to see, but a review of Tedd's catalog lists some as appropriate.
So let us assume Ray has indeed matching pushrods for his hydraulics....

It is still a fact of life however:
OEM hydraulics plus stock Pan oilpump plus andrews A-grind equals hammering at hot idle.

Andrews won't admit it.
But call any other cam source tech line and ask.
(Albeit Crane and Sifton are both history.)
The ramps allow the lifter a chance to bleed.

I learned the hardest way imagineable (but at least it didn't blow the right motor case).

....Cotten

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