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Pan issues

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popspan
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Pan issues

#1

Post by popspan » Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:04 am

ok here it goes again. I have a 51 panhead, Mallory ing, Acell 3 ohm super coil, new sifton 440 cam, aluminum pushrods, aftermarket one piece hydraulic lifters, S&S pump (oil pressure runs around 40), S&S Super E carb. I did the pressure test on the manifold (No leaks). Timed it with a light numerous time (Dead center). The bike runs like a champ for the first 5 miles or so then its starts. I lose all power, the moter misses, the valve train gets louder. Did it today, I took out the plugs and they look fine. Any ideas?



Billy
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Re: Pan issues

#2

Post by Billy » Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:23 am

Popspan- Always ideas!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is the Mallory electronic or have points ??
If points, try changing the condenser...
Never heard of 1 piece hydraulic lifters ??? They are made up of several pieces..
please explain..
Also; are you sure the aluminum push-rods are correctly adjusted, as aluminum expands more than steel..
Your pushrods will be growing & may be holding the valves open a bit, after the first 5 miles/heat..
That would create a drastic power-loss..
Without a doubt!!!

popspan
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Re: Pan issues

#3

Post by popspan » Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:36 am

Yes the Mallory is eletronic, here is a link to the lifters I have ( - no longer valid - ) with the pushrods, they are adjust 0 lash up and down. and roll with no drag.

Jim58

Re: Pan issues

#4

Post by Jim58 » Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:19 pm

Hi,
just a thought... the hydraulic lifters you got from ebay are standard diameter. if you have the stock cast iron lifter blocks it is common to find these machined out +5 thou or more (mine are +10) to get rid of scoring etc. if you've got a loose fit as the oil warms it will bleed past the follower rather than fill the lifter. you would then get all the symtoms you mentioned.
keep it pan,
Jim (58FL)

popspan
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Re: Pan issues

#5

Post by popspan » Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:39 pm

The lifter blocks are new aftermarket blocks. Standard dia.

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Re: Pan issues

#6

Post by Cotten » Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:41 pm

PP!

I am a little confused:
You have hydraulic lifters that were advertised to adjust like stock ones, but you wrote " they are adjust 0 lash up and down. and roll with no drag", which is almostwhat solids require.
I suspect they should be set 4 turns down from zero lash. You would have to wash them out to do so safely.

popspan
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Re: Pan issues

#7

Post by popspan » Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:46 pm

OK, now I'm confused too. I'm I adjusting these things wrong? What would it run like if I was adjusting them with 0 lash?

OK, I'm confused. Am I adjusting the pushrods wrong for the type of lifters I have? Would I be getting these symtoms if they were way to loose? I just want to be sure before I go 4 turns on these things and end up screwing something :-/

Plain
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Re: Pan issues

#8

Post by Plain » Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:19 pm

Pops:

Checked the Ebay site and you have hydraulic lifters. Picture on plastic bag even shows the Harley number 18532-53A which is the HYDRAULIC lifter. See Cotten's post. You have to adjust these lifters to put a preload on the spring, which is generally about four turns after all slack is removed (0 lash). More than likely this is the problem with your bike. Shut her down until you get this resolved or you will end up with a burned valve.

Adios-----Plain

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Re: Pan issues

#9

Post by King » Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:44 pm

Hi Pops

You reported that your motor is a 51. Maybe Cotten can help out here, but it is my understanding that almost all 51s were supplied with the "oilcan" hydraulic lifters which were hydraulic units at the top of the pushrods as opposed to the later Pans that had the hydraulics in the tappets.
At least my 51FL (a mid-model-year bike) was equipped with "oilcans", but there may be the possibility that late 51s had the hyraulic lifters in the tappets like later models.
If your bike was produced with the "oilcans" there are no oil passageways in the lifter blocks to supply oil to the hydraulics of the lifters. Thus, they can not function properly as they lack an oil supply. As Plain noted, the part number of the units you installed indicates they are hydraulic lifters.
I don't know exactly what would be the mechanical result of using hydraulic lifters in soild lifter blocks but the symptoms you describe sound like lifter collapse which I suspect would be the result.
My .02, and I'll return the discussion to those more knowledgeable than I. But I'm with Plain, shut her down until you get this sorted out.

Good Luck

King

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Re: Pan issues

#10

Post by PanPal » Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:58 pm

I believe they moved hydraulic lifters into the tappet blocks in 53. Do you have any books for reference? Palmers How to restore your Panhead book probably shows all the differences and the years they were used. It's nice to have the pictures. The book will save you $'s in the long run.

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Re: Pan issues

#11

Post by Jack_Hester » Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:18 pm

Popspan -

A '51 Pan should have the 18492-48 tappets, along with the 17905-48 hydraulic pushrods (hydraulic unit built into the top of the pushrod). As these guys have stated, yours would have no provision in the tappet blocks, or engine, to provide oiling to the later hydraulic tappets. As the older hydraulic pushrods are highly unreliable, you would have to find some aftermarket pushrod replacements to use on the solid original tappets. Or, get some solid adapters to use with the later hydraulic tappets (not the ones you have, but OEM tappets).

Jack

Plain
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Re: Pan issues

#12

Post by Plain » Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:32 pm

Jack, King, PanPal, Etc.

The lifters that Popspan purchased on E-Bay are:
Set of 4 new aftermarket hydraulic lifters for Harley panhead or shovelhead are imported and distributed by Eastern. The 'one piece' design has the hydraulic unit held inside the lifter body with a snap ring like the evo lifters. Uses the same stock (small tip) hydraulic pushrods and adjust the same as stock. Replaces OEM #18522-53A body and 17920-53 hydraulic unit which can cost $250+. Standard dia.
It is not possible to tell from the picture if the lifter has the oil hole towards the bottom of the tappet as per pan lifters. Could be an adjustment problem. Could be an oiling problem.

Plain

popspan
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Re: Pan issues

#13

Post by popspan » Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:55 pm

Thanks everyone for all the input, I'm pretty sure I had them adjusted wrong. I'm gonna readjust them tonight and see what happens. If adjustment is the problem (I'm pretty sure it is) I would like to receive the dumb-ass of the year award Razz
Thanks again
Popspan

Plain
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Re: Pan issues

#14

Post by Plain » Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:11 pm

Pops:

I regret to inform you that that award, Dumb-ass of the Year, and/or Dumb-ass For Life has been bestowed on me for life. You will have to get in line. At best, as long as I breathe, you can only achieve honorable mention dumb-ass. That dust in your eyes is from me going down the road before you.
Be very carefull adjusting the lifters and make sure that you bleed them, or let them bleed down before rotating. Don't want any bent valves on that fine looking Pan.

Plain

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Re: Pan issues

#15

Post by Jack_Hester » Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:41 am

Plain -

I have had an email conversation with this eBay dealer, in the recent past, about his lifters. He said that they are the same as the ones that Eastern Motorcycle Parts sells. They buy from the same source. As a matter of fact, I have a set of them in my shop, to put in a friends Shovelhead. He got them from the same dealer. I'll look at them tomorrow and post where the oil hole is.

Jack

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