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63-65 oil restrictors -placement

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old1955
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63-65 oil restrictors -placement

#1

Post by old1955 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:34 pm

G'day,
I may have an over oiling problem on my 65, can any one tell me where
the restricters were placed and what were they, just a reduced ID sized pipe pressed into
the gallery of the head or somewhere?

I found oil in the intake tract, tested the head without the rocker box on, no leaks around the guide
or porosity leaks through the head. When I pulled the heads, there was oil sitting on top of both pistons.

I had made two changes before I realized this was happening. New aluminium top spring retainers and
installed the original type intake oiler pipes as they were missing. Started the bike and ran it a few times
for about ten minutes a time. Then a day later I removed the intake manifold to measure the width of it
and noticed the oil.

thanks
Pete
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Re: 63-65 oil restrictors -placement

#2

Post by Cotten » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:27 pm

Old1955!

My over-oiling stroker didn't get through to the combustion chamber, but I restricted it with a small rivet drilled to .060", and captured within the bottom overhead oil line fitting above the cam cover. It is easily removable to try a different size of orifice.

Flooding can result from a drain restriction, a modern pump, breather timng accuracy, or a lack of air-tight seal upon the covers (and perhaps other things, or combinations of such...)

For oil to enter the combustion chamber, I would suspect an inward breach at the headgasket around the drain gallery.

....Cotten
PS: I see an insert for the cover screw over the intake port on the front head. Please be certain that there is no chance of a breach into the port.

You got funny electrical outlets down there.

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Re: 63-65 oil restrictors -placement

#3

Post by old1955 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:30 am

G'day Cotten, Many thanks,

Yeah! you got me thinking now, of oil draining, there was one other thing I plumb
forgot to mention that I did to the bike, I made up and installed a set of stroker plates,
but in this case they are de-compression plates.

You see, it wouldn't run right (knocking) on 98 octane pump gas without an additive, I was sick of it.
The compression ratio was way too high, someone had shortened the barrels to do this, barrel height was 5.383"
But I was particular about the drains being correct, I lowered them the thickness of the plate, then
checked them. I'll check and test them again now.

Drilled rivet, nice! Good location too.

I didn't see oil from the head gasket area, I thought the oil may have dropped down from the head when
the valve was open. There was no smoke with the motor running.

The shots of the plates are pre drilling the oil holes.

thanks again
Pete
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Re: 63-65 oil restrictors -placement

#4

Post by mbskeam » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:41 am

looks like the case would block the oil return.
for a simple test bolt on a jug and put some oil down the oil return, it should drain

http://www.sscycle.com/admin/uploads/in ... 1-1018.pdf

Image

Image

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Re: 63-65 oil restrictors -placement

#5

Post by RUBONE » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:26 am

I guess I am confused by the hole in the cylinder skirts and the drilling in the cases. Why was this done? And also, do the stroker plates raise the original cylinder drain hole above the top edge of the oil control ring? If crankcase pressure is bleeding back into the heads it can prevent drainage and cause an over oiling situation within the rocker covers.
Robbie

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Re: 63-65 oil restrictors -placement

#6

Post by mbskeam » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:44 am

I did this because mine is a 4-5/8 stroke, the oil control ring drops below the upper hole,
as you can see the tube next to the cyl is to block off the upper hole, this directs the oil to the bottom of the cyl.
the holes drilled into the case are the return path for the oil back into the bottom end
and the bottom hole drilled into the jug lines up to the hole drilled into the case, this allows the oil to return to the bottom end, if the bottom hole was not drilled into the jug the return path would be blocked.
that is why I think the stroker plates and jug return hole are being block or partially blocked

by the way what are those S&S cyl, big bore?

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Re: 63-65 oil restrictors -placement

#7

Post by old1955 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:20 am

G'day mbskeam, I was doing that as you were typing. I found a restriction at BDC
But I would have thought that was normal as the piston is right down there filling the skirt area of
the barrel and momentarily in front of the drain hole . So the oil has to squeeze around the piston and
there ain't much room there. No problem with the piston at TDC. Squirting oil down the drain hole
with no backing up of oil.
I also lengthened the drain in the barrel the same amount of thickness of the plate to keep alignment with the drain in the case
when i did it a few weeks back.

Yeah! The barrels or S&S 3-5/8 bore.

G'day Rubone, crankcase pressure, you got me there, I would have thought at the moment it looks like pressure
the breather opens and relieves that. I think this setup isn't that much different from stock real and would be subject to
the same pressures.

Thanks for your thoughts
Pete

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Re: 63-65 oil restrictors -placement

#8

Post by Cotten » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:24 pm

One problem with the conventional "S&S-style" of lowering the oil hole, as Mbskeam shows,
is that the top hole should be restricted, if not blocked.

The easiest means to do this is to find a piece of tubing that will slip into the drain gallery of the cylinder.
Splitting it length-wise with a sawcut, the tubing can then be sprung oversize to wedge tightly within the gallery, thus blocking the upper drain, but allowing flow to the lower drain in the case.

Brazing the hole means another overbore!

...Cotten
PS: Fastener stress at the cylinder base should be distributed as evenly as possible, particularly at larger bores.
Tall nuts with a narrow washing face are not desirable, as they increase distortion. The cylinder must be fitted for its piston while torqued with those same fasteners if they are intended for final assembly.

The triangular blanchards used for the early 80 chubbleheads provide the best possible distribution of stress, and very desirable for large overbores.

I have never torque-plate-fitted cylinders with an included 'stroker plate', but I fear that such a stack of springy pieces may make things go squirrely just like a sleeved cylinder, so the technique should certainly be applied.

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Re: 63-65 oil restrictors -placement

#9

Post by StueyC » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:20 pm

Cotten, what would be the result is both drains are open?

StueyC

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Re: 63-65 oil restrictors -placement

#10

Post by Cotten » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:57 am

StueyC!

If your rings travel below the hole, they will pressurize the gallery on every upstroke.
Not much, but still not good, as you want the pressure to come from above.

....Cotten

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Re: 63-65 oil restrictors -placement

#11

Post by mbskeam » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:46 am

? about your jugs, do they have the panhead bolt pattern at the top or shovel?
1 where did you get them, I see that you have the oem type intake that is why I ask.
2 how thick are the de-compression plates?
3 did you make these?
4 how was it to kick before and then after?
5 do you know what your comp.IE static/dynamic was before?
6 did you take a compression test,IE how many PSI

my compression test was 140 PSI.
really thinking of adding plates to lower the compression.

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Re: 63-65 oil restrictors -placement

#12

Post by FlatHeadSix » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:12 am

mbskeam wrote: really thinking of adding plates to lower the compression.
Mike
What about changing pistons?

just a thought

mike

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Re: 63-65 oil restrictors -placement

#13

Post by mbskeam » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:02 am

finding pistons for 4-5/8 stroke has been a pain

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Re: 63-65 oil restrictors -placement

#14

Post by old1955 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:47 am

G'day again mbskeen,

? about your jugs, do they have the panhead bolt pattern at the top or shovel?
They are stock bolt pattern heads

1 where did you get them, I see that you have the oem type intake that is why I ask.
They were on the bike when I got it

2 how thick are the de-compression plates?
They are 2mm aluminium plate, can't get Imperial sizes in some things these days

3 did you make these?
Yes

4 how was it to kick before and then after?
Well its always been easy to kick over, because of the cam overlap, I think (Andrews BH)

5 do you know what your comp.IE static/dynamic was before?
I did a quick look at some S&S charts, barrel length and stroke with piston
and after talking to a mate who builds a lot of HD motors and figured it to be in excess of 9.3:1


6 did you take a compression test,IE how many PSI
No, i didn't, wish I had

I only have run the bike a couple times till I found the oil, so no very little about any new habits it may have.

At the moment Heads are still off.
Pete
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Re: 63-65 oil restrictors -placement

#15

Post by mbskeam » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:35 am

Pete,

did you get your bike back up?

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