How long for tear down and inspection?

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islanddave
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:52 am
Bikes: 1958 Panhead
Location: ontario

How long for tear down and inspection?

#1

Post by islanddave » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:10 pm

I have narrowed down two shops for my Panhead rebuild. On shop charges $65/hr and says 6 hours for tear down and inspection. The other charges $89/hour and says 3 hours. The $65 an hour one says that on the extreme end of money it could cost $8000 for rebuild. The other says on the extreme end it could cost $5000. Now keep in mind that this is NOT A REAL PANHEAD ENGINE. It is an STD cased engine with s and s rods std heads etc. Someone put money into this in 1986. I doubt that there will be any welding done to the cases, no exhaust flanges to be welded, or intake inlets to be fixed. This engine was also running great 4 years ago, it took it off the road to change the base gaskets and noticed that there was "excessive"front rod play. I didn't want to blow the engine so I parked it in the basement. I hope I haven't offended those here who have genuine Panheads. I know that there is a wealth of information here gathered through experience and that is what I wish to tap into.

Does 6 hours seem reasonable or is 3 hours more reasonable? I just dont want to get screwed.


Fire Away! :lol:


Dave



Pomike
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:54 pm

Re: How long for tear down and inspection?

#2

Post by Pomike » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:14 pm

If the motor is not in the frame, why don't you take it apart? Save some money there. 3 to 6 hours for a teardown and inspection? I would think closer to 3 or 4, tops. And at the price they want to rebuild it, tops, I would look for another motor! But that's just me. I never go to high priced shops, so i don't have much experience with that. Both of those hourly rates are in the ballpark nowadays, though. Good luck! If you lived aroun NW Ohio, I would have a couple guys for you to check with. But an STD that old? Hmmm............. Mike

islanddave
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:52 am
Bikes: 1958 Panhead
Location: ontario

Re: How long for tear down and inspection?

#3

Post by islanddave » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:24 pm

islanddave wrote:I have narrowed down two shops for my Panhead rebuild. On shop charges $65/hr and says 6 hours for tear down and inspection. The other charges $89/hour and says 3 hours. The $65 an hour one says that on the extreme end of money it could cost $8000 for rebuild. The other says on the extreme end it could cost $5000. Now keep in mind that this is NOT A REAL PANHEAD ENGINE. It is an STD cased engine with s and s rods std heads etc. Someone put money into this in 1986. I doubt that there will be any welding done to the cases, no exhaust flanges to be welded, or intake inlets to be fixed. This engine was also running great 4 years ago, it took it off the road to change the base gaskets and noticed that there was "excessive"front rod play. I didn't want to blow the engine so I parked it in the basement. I hope I haven't offended those here who have genuine Panheads. I know that there is a wealth of information here gathered through experience and that is what I wish to tap into.

Does 6 hours seem reasonable or is 3 hours more reasonable? I just dont want to get screwed.


Fire Away! :lol:


Dave

Anybody from Ontario Canada and can recommend someone to do rebuild??

JR JOHNSON
Posts: 325
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:13 pm
Bikes: 1941wla,1946el,1947fl,1950fl,1959flh,1972flh,4 twinkies,1 evo
Location: oregon

Re: How long for tear down and inspection?

#4

Post by JR JOHNSON » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:30 pm

hi,is this a major overhaul,our a top end rebuild? whats wrong with it,smokes, seized up,or just wore out?.with respect.JR.......opps didn'tread it all,but the laters rods have allumium cages, with shorter bearings,more movement,get some s&s rods new,and you'll think there wore out.

Cotten
Posts: 6791
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: How long for tear down and inspection?

#5

Post by Cotten » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:41 pm

Dave!

First, please consider what the common terms "hourly rate" and "flat-rate" are supposed to mean.

If a shop charges actual time elapsed, you should hope their hourly rate is reasonable!
If a shop adheres to a strict pre-scheduled flat rate, (which is brutal to those performing the work), then their estimate may accurately reflect upon your final bill, however the quality of the services may be cut short.

In real life, neither approach can be ideally applied;
The service writer will always have to make judgement calls on the charges.

Another 'generic' repop motor bought outright is in the $6G (US dollars) range. An astronomical estimate might just mean they do not want the gig (even though a properly over-haul'd motor should be better than anything off the shelf.)

So your decision should weigh heavily upon your personal inspection of their facilities, their longevity and reputation, and the look in their eyes.

Good Luck!

....Cotten

islanddave
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:52 am
Bikes: 1958 Panhead
Location: ontario

Re: How long for tear down and inspection?

#6

Post by islanddave » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:56 pm

What do you feel about this place? Take a good look around lots to look at, and the "shop policy" section seems to echo Cotten's sentiments.


Thanks Always,


Dave



http://bronkos.com/index.php?option=com ... &Itemid=29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

islanddave
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:52 am
Bikes: 1958 Panhead
Location: ontario

Re: How long for tear down and inspection?

#7

Post by islanddave » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:04 pm

Then there is this place as well.......http://www.heavydutycycles.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know that these site will tell only part of the tale but from what is available to me these two seem to be the choices I have.

Thanks Dave

Hubbard
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Location: Virginia

Re: How long for tear down and inspection?

#8

Post by Hubbard » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:48 pm

5000.00 will buy not only the tools to do it with, and the parts to do it with, but also the best education and experience of your life with this scooter. If you buy a manual it will get you thru the teardown, a digital camera(85.00) will take care of the memory part ,and you already have some of the best experience you can get on this forum. If you do it yourself you do not have to worry about the price of labor. You should be able to rebuild it . somebody else put it together. Everybody starts out with the same amount of experience-----------NONE.

Cotten
Posts: 6791
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: How long for tear down and inspection?

#9

Post by Cotten » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:52 am

Dave!

Although I agree with Hubbard in principle, and encourage everyone to do as much as possible for themselves,
it is not always practical for everyone to jump off into the world of motorservice. That $500 estimate is a bit conservative, as just a bargain lathe can set you back that much. And you need the facilities to house your new second hobby.
And the time involved isn't factored in; That's why so many successful shops farm so much out to specialists.

If you have a competent general auto machine shop in your area, armed with the proper instructions, they should be able to meet your basic needs with few problems, and you can enjoy the satisfaction of doing the rest.

Meanwhile,
Those sites are sure kewl.

I would never pass judgement upon a shop based upon their advertising, but it always makes me scratch my chin when operations want to be everything to everybody.

Please pick the closest one and visit for your own peace of mind.
You may then decide to visit the other for your own reassurance as well.

They both appear to be far above the norm,
for what thats worth!

...Cotten

amiabledave
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:06 pm
Bikes: 1957 Panhead, First HD was a 1969 Sporster w/factory mag,
Location: Florida

Re: How long for tear down and inspection?

#10

Post by amiabledave » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:17 am

DAVE,

3 HRS DOESN'T SOUND UNREASONABLE TO ME TO TEAR DOWN, INSPECT AND TO WRITE DOWN WHAT IS NEEDED. SOUNDS LIKE YOU WANT TO COMPLETELY REBUILD IT. DON'T TEAR IT APART UNLESS YOUR GOING TO REBUILD IT YOURSELF. GIVE IT TO THE SHOP WHOLE.

MOST SHOPS WILL TELL YOU, BEFORE THEY HAVE TOUCHED YOUR ENGINE, WHAT THE COST IS TO
(1) REBUILD THE RODS, WHICH YOU SAY IT NEEDS, AND TO REASSEMBLE THE WHEELS W/NEW PIN, BEARINGS.....
(2) OVER SIZE PISTONS-BORE/HONE CYL
(3) REBUILD HEADS COMPLETELY
(4) TIMKEN SET ASSEM. AND PINION BEARINGS
(5) GASKET SET
GET THIS IN WRITING.............

ASK WHAT THEY CHARGE TO LAP THE CASES, IN CASE YOU NEED IT.

THE ABOVE, NOT INCLUDING LAPPING THE CASES, SHOULD BE AROUND $1k. +/-. DEMOGRAPHICS WILL DICTATE THE PRICE. CAM COVER BUSHINGS, IF PROPER OIL FLOW, RARELY NEEDS REPLACING. THE INITIAL INSPECTION WILL LET YOU KNOW ALONG WITH OIL PUMP BUSHINGS, BREATHER VALVE, ETC.

The extreme end it could cost $5000, maybe....$3k sounds better for the above work............

Another Dave..............

Cotten
Posts: 6791
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: How long for tear down and inspection?

#11

Post by Cotten » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:30 pm

AmiableDave!

If a shop still lapps cases, I would look for a more modern shop!
LINEHONE.jpg
Seriously.

....Cotten
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King
Posts: 373
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:05 pm

Re: How long for tear down and inspection?

#12

Post by King » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:18 pm

Dave

The last time I did a rebuild I stripped the motor down in one day including washing all parts (kerosene followed by boiling water), without any special tools. The only thing I didn't do was disassemble the crank and rods I let one of my better equipped and more knowledgeable club bros do that. At that time, we examined all the parts and miked them so when I took the motor to my rebuilder we knew what had to be replaced etc.

By going through the process not only did I gain more appreciation for the motor but saved teardown and diagnosis time charges at the shop.

King

amiabledave
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:06 pm
Bikes: 1957 Panhead, First HD was a 1969 Sporster w/factory mag,
Location: Florida

Re: How long for tear down and inspection?

#13

Post by amiabledave » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:31 pm

COTTEN,

ARE YOU SAYING THAT LAPPING WILL NOT DO THE JOB? OR MAYBE BECAUSE A SHOP HAS OLDER EQUIPMENT, THEY ARE LESS ABLE TO DO A GREAT JOB? NOT ALL SHOPS HAVE A HONING MACHINE. IF THAT'S YOU'RE MACHINE IN YOUR PIC, GREAT. YOUR MACHINE LOOKS LIKE THE STUFF I WORKED WITH WHEN I WAS AN APPRENTICE MACHINIST, 1950'S VINTAGE. BUT IT WORKS....Sunnen HAS BEEN MAKING HONING MACHINES FOR 85 YEARS, BUT HARLEY LAPPED ENGINE MAIN BEARINGS....LETS NOT THROW AWAY MATCHES TO LIGHT A CIGARETTE BECAUSE THEY CAME OUT WITH BUTANE!

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS DAVE ASKED A SPECIFIC QUESTION AND MOST DIDN'T ANSWER IT! IF HE WANTED TO DO THE JOB HIMSELF, I'M SURE HE WOULD HAVE STATED THAT.....

ANOTHER DAVE

Cotten
Posts: 6791
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: How long for tear down and inspection?

#14

Post by Cotten » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:17 pm

Another Dave!

To be blunt,
a common lapp is a crude "field repair" device, requiring great patience, technique, and hours of diligence.

How many hours of flat rate would you like to pay a shop for a forty-minute job, and still get an imperfect finish?
Any serious motor shop must have a hone (or a "bushing grinder"), if not for the mains, for nearly every other precision fit within the motor.

You really don't think the Factory lapped cases do you?
Please consider the number of machines produced annually from the beginning of WW2 through the Pan era.
Please consider the number of expensive laps that would have been required, as they wear as quickly as the work!

H-D may have its crude roots, but they never would have succeeded without keeping up with advances. And as you pointed out, even Sunnen has been around for a very, very long time.

....Cotten
PS: I do have a "lapp" that is as appropriate as a hone, and more so when a serious correction of the bore is required due to welding, etc. But it is a pre-set .001 O.S. Sidley diamond "lapp", which they offered to buy back from me for $800, many years ago.

amiabledave
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:06 pm
Bikes: 1957 Panhead, First HD was a 1969 Sporster w/factory mag,
Location: Florida

Re: How long for tear down and inspection?

#15

Post by amiabledave » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:30 pm

COTTEN,

I GET IT!!....I DO......YOUR HAUGHTY.....

YOU NEVER DID ANSWER MY QUESTION, NOR DID YOU ANSWER DAVE'S. RATHER, YOU WOULD TRY TO BELITTLE AND IN READING AT GREAT LENGTH OLDER POSTS, BELITTLING OTHERS. MAYBE THAT'S WHY, ONLY THE SAME SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE WRITE THERE OPINIONS HERE. THEY CAN TAKE YOUR BS WHEN IT COMES OUT. THERE IS KNOW DOUBT THAT YOU HAVE BEEN AROUND BIKES FOR QUITE SOME TIME, BUT YOUR LIKE A HARD STARTING PAN.

YES, I DO SAY THAT HARLEY LAPPED AS A REBUILD AND I NEVER SAID THAT THEY DIDN'T USE A HONING MACHINE ON NEW ENGINES. NO ONE BUT YOU SAID IT WOULD TAKE HOURS TO LAP MATERIAL OUT.....HOW MUCH MATERIAL ARE YOU TAKING OUT? .015/.025/.050?...LOL YOUR STATEMENT IS RIDICULES AND IT'S HYPOTHETICAL. DON'T INTERJECT THE ABSURD... LAPPING WILL REPAIR MINOR IMPERFECTIONS QUICKLY.... AND I REITERATE THAT BECAUSE A SHOP HAS A LAPPING TOOL AND DOESN'T HAVE A HONING MACHINE, DOESN'T MEAN IT DOES INFERIOR WORK....SOMETHING THAT YOU THINK IT DOES BY YOUR NEGATIVE CRITICISM.

WHY DON'T YOU GO OUT ON THE LIMB AND ANSWER DAVE'S QUESTION...HERE IT IS IF YOU FORGOT. IN SHORT-I have narrowed down two shops for my Panhead rebuild. One shop charges $65/hr and says 6 hours for tear down and inspection. The other charges $89/hour and says 3 hours. Does 6 hours seem reasonable or is 3 hours more reasonable? I just don't want to get screwed....I say once again, 3 hrs with the same statements as my 1st post......It doesn't take an hr to tear down. The rest is inspection......AFTER THE INSPECTION DAVE, HAVE THEM GIVE YOU A FIGURE. IF THEY DID THE INSPECTION RIGHT, IT SHOULD BE CLOSE. IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT YOU SEE, HOW YOUR DISASSEMBLED ENGINE IS DISPLAYED, OR HEAR, PICK IT UP AND LEAVE

THE END.......DAVE

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