'61 Pan wiring question

Electrical issues
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TimmyV
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'61 Pan wiring question

#1

Post by TimmyV » Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:48 pm

As some of you know, I've been working on a '61 Pan that I picked up in early August. Been trying to get her on the road, despite various set backs including a couple of mashed & broken fingers on clutch hand due to an industrial accident. But I digress. Yesterday morning I was riding her to a small time bike show being held in my area with all the proceeds going to the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation. Never expected to win, just mostly doing it for the kids & okay... I'll admit it. I wanted to show my Panhead off a bit. lol.
Heading down a country road at 7:20 in the morning, ol' Norma Jean was singing that Panhead song to me, just purring along like a kitten. All of a sudden there's smoke coming from around ignition switch & battery area, then I lost all power. Coasted to side of road & could not get it to restart as there was no power to switch. Got trailer & decided to go to show anyways, even if she wasn't running.Haven't really checked things out this morning, however I did pull the battery only to find that the ground wires were burnt to a crisp. I say wires, because not only do I have a ground wire running from battery to frame, I also added a ground wire from frame to switch base where it bolts onto the base plate of dash. I did this because presently the dash base plate may or may not have a good ground. Previous owner had cut the stock castings off the top rail of frame & used one of those kits from J&P to mount the gas tanks & dash plate. This winter I plan to weld this bracket to frame like it should be.
7200150_Agastankbracket.jpg
When I finished up the wiring on this bike I thought I had everything that needed to be protected taken care of, either by circuit breaker or fuse. I used 14 gauge wire throughout, soldered connections, shrink wrapped everthing possible. Now I'm at a loss as to what might have caused this to happen. I'll know more when I take things apart later today, just tossing this out there in the hopes that someone will chime in & show me a better way to run the wiring, or maybe be able to tell me what they think might've happened. Here's my electrical schematic, see what you think. It's a Cycle Electric generator with built in regulator, BTW.
ElectricalSchematic.jpg
Oh, yesterday wasn't a total loss as I did get a top 5 award at the show ! I will admit if I had been able to ride the bike to/ from the show & made it home successfully that would've been way more satisfying to me, but what the hell, a victory is a victory I suppose.

** Been sitting here studying the schematic I posted & I wonder if I have the 20 A fuse in the proper location as it appears that in it's current location it would not allow a full 30 A to the circuit breaker. I added the fuse due to Cycle Electric's recommendation in their instructions:


" The "B" terminal is regulated power & can be connected directly to your battery or headlight switch ( use 14 gauge wire ). If a battery is used we recommend a 20A fuse or breaker between battery & generator ."
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Bigincher
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Re: '61 Pan wiring question

#2

Post by Bigincher » Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:13 pm

I'm not going to try to help on the wiring, sorry... but I would like to comment on that 'frame-saver' device. Those things have brought a lot of old choppers back from the dark ages, and that's great, but I can tell you this---- you would be better off obtaining the replacement dash base mount and seat-T / rear tank mount brackets as separate items and welding them on in the exact location. When I bought the '52FL I am currently restoring, it had that chingadera on it, and it caused the gas tanks to have a poor fit, raising them up so that the lower front tabs wouldn't engage the mount between the downtubes. I started dissasembling the motorcycle to find out what was going on there, discovered that 'frame-saver' thing, took a few more things off the bike, and---- next thing ya knew, I had a real nice basket case! :lol:
Competetion distributing offers high-quality frame replacement parts, and since you're going to be doing some welding anyway, why not restore it closer to original? Everything will fit a lot better, and you won't 'wish you woulda' later on.
Just my 2 cents worth....

TimmyV
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Re: '61 Pan wiring question

#3

Post by TimmyV » Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:23 pm

Thanks for the information about Competition Distributing. Yes, that does seem a better alternatitive, just was not aware that other replacement parts were available. Have a LOT to learn about this Panhead, I'll be the first to admit.

Bigincher
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Re: '61 Pan wiring question

#4

Post by Bigincher » Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:46 pm

Taiwan Tedd has those parts, too.

mbskeam
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Re: '61 Pan wiring question

#5

Post by mbskeam » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:29 pm

if you put the Kill switch to ground that would be a direct short.

you can move the fuses to the ground side it will work the same
yes the 30 should be in front of the 20

50-40-30-20-15-10-5

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Re: '61 Pan wiring question

#6

Post by john HD » Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:12 pm

mike hit the nail on the head.

there is no reason to have a kill switch on a bike with a coil. your diagram shows a direct short to ground on the battery side if the switch is engaged.

john

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Re: '61 Pan wiring question

#7

Post by FlatHeadSix » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:49 am

on those combination Hi-Low switches with a button I thought the button was for the horn and not a "kill" switch.?, if it does go directly to ground it'll smoke your wires if it is wired according to your diagram.

When you mentioned smoke from the ignition switch just before it quit the first thing I thought of was a grounded switch terminal wire under the dash cover. There is not much clearance when you place the cover over the whole assembly and if you don't have the terminal ends bent just right and taped up or heat shrink insulated they are prone to contacting anything near them and causing exactly the problem you had. Check for arcing on the inside of the dash cover in the areas adjacent to the hot terminals, also check the dash base in the same areas.

mike

TimmyV
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Re: '61 Pan wiring question

#8

Post by TimmyV » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:49 am

Y'all might be onto something about the kill switch. When I got the bike the kill switch was already wired that way so I simply left it. Think I'll get rid of it now though. Will also check all terminals under the dash plate. I put that thing together at least 4 times trying to make certain none of them were touching anything.
Thanks for all the input guys.

TimmyV
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Re: '61 Pan wiring question

#9

Post by TimmyV » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:12 am

john HD wrote:mike hit the nail on the head.

there is no reason to have a kill switch on a bike with a coil. your diagram shows a direct short to ground on the battery side if the switch is engaged.

john

Today I moved the 20A fuse to the other side of the 30A breaker & removed the wiring to the kill switch just to be certain that it wouldn't be a problem. In the process of moving the 20A fuse I discovered a spot in the shrink wrap at one of my original soldered connections between the 20A fuse & the battery that had apparently shorted out on the inside of the battery box. Replaced ground wire from battery to frame & moved 20A fuse as I said earlier. With any luck maybe tomorrow I'll get to see how she does.

BTW, the kill switch was wired that way when I got it so I figured that was how it was done.My mistake. Let's just say I wanted a kill switch anyways, even if I didn't need it, what would be a better way to accomplish that safely , if you don't mind me asking ? And what does having a coil got to do with it ? My '02 FLTR has a coil & a kill switch ? Not trying to be a smart a$$ , just really don't know & want to understand better.

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Re: '61 Pan wiring question

#10

Post by RUBONE » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:59 am

Your FLTR ha a coil and a power disconnect switch, not a Kill switch. There is a huge difference. A kill switch grounds out an ignition system and is generally used on magneto systems. What your FLTR has that you refer to as a kill switch is nothing more than a simple switch that removes the power to the ignition when it is flipped, just as a home light switch does. The difference is no ground is in the circuit as in a kill switch.
Robbie

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Re: '61 Pan wiring question

#11

Post by FlatHeadSix » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:43 am

Timmy
A true kill switch, as used on a magneto ignition, or similar to the ones on the old board track racers, is momentary. It acts very much like a horn button or a door bell button and only completes a circuit while you are pushing it down. Most of the kill switches have one side which goes directly to the chassis ground and the other side to the part of the ignition that you want to ground or "short" out.

If you really want to put a grounded kill switch on your pan then you need to wire it in parallel with the wire from the timer to the negative side of the coil. Wired this way it, when you push the kill switch, your ignition circuit would behave as if the points never opened; the coil could not produce any spark, it would quit running. No harm will come to any of the system components, it will simply prevent the engine from running.

If the kill switch in your wiring diagram goes directly to ground the only thing it will do is smoke the wires.

mike

TimmyV
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Re: '61 Pan wiring question

#12

Post by TimmyV » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:14 pm

Thanks for the replies guys. Always willing to learn something new. Just for the heck of it I think I'm going to wire in a grounded kill switch as suggested by FlatHeadSix. Might wait until winter to do so as time is running out for our riding season here & I've barely got to put any miles on Norma Jean since I got her.

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