How to identify generator and voltage regulator

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Mark44
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How to identify generator and voltage regulator

#1

Post by Mark44 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:10 pm

I tacked this question onto an existing thread about 65A generators, but didn't get any responses, so a better approach might be to start a new thread. I realize that my question is a tough one.

My pan has a 55 motor that was upgraded to a 12v system. I don't see a single identifying mark on the generator. Is there someplace I should be looking to identify this generator? Under the end cap? Under the strap?

The voltage regulator has almost no markings on it, and seems to be a repro of one of the Delco Remy types with two terminals at one end (one is marked BAT) and one terminal at the other end. (This appears to be the "Look-A-Like" regulator in the VTwin catalog - part no. 32-0071.) Other than BAT, there is no writing anywhere on this regulator, including on the bottom.

I've had the battery unhooked several times while I was replacing an ignition switch and can't figure out which terminals on the regulator to use to flash the field coils on the generator. Palmer's book isn't any help, since it talks exclusively about 6V generators. I also have Kirk Perry's book, and am using the wiring diagram for 48 - 57, which identifies the forward terminal on the generator as the Switch Terminal and the rear terminal as the Relay Terminal. The wire from the relay terminal goes to the rear terminal on the regulator, leading me to believe that the rear terminal is "A", which leaves the front left terminal being "F". The wire from the forward terminal on the generator actually does go to the switch (terminal 2). To flash the generator field coils, I connect a clip to the BAT terminal and briefly touch the other front terminal ("F"?) on the regulator.

I still need to test the regulator and generator, but before I start the tests, it would be a good idea to know for sure which is the A terminal and which is the F terminal on the regulator. Any help here would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark



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Re: How to identify generator and voltage regulator

#2

Post by john HD » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:24 am

mark, i'll do a little research and get back to you...

john

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Re: How to identify generator and voltage regulator

#3

Post by john HD » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:32 am

first, sounds like you are trying to use a cutout relay with a 2 brush generator. that will not work.

you will need a 2 unit regulator that is square and about 4 times larger than what you have. they are usually delco remy, but 12 volt bosch vw units will work too.

second, you will need to remove the end of the generator and possibly the brush holder to see what wires run to what terminal. if that is not possible there are other ways of finding out...

the armature terminal should connect to the + brush. the other terminal (field) should connect to the coils.

post photos of what you have if you can. that will help us help you get it sorted out.

john

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Re: How to identify generator and voltage regulator

#4

Post by Mark44 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:18 am

Thanks, John,

As far as I can tell (and based on what I see in the VTwin catalog), the regulator is an electronic unit, not one with contact points. I'll take another look at the catalog to make sure, and I'll pop the end off the generator to see where the wires go. I'll take some pictures and post them here.

Mark

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Re: How to identify generator and voltage regulator

#5

Post by Perry Ruiter » Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:56 am

Harley switched the position of the A and F terminals with the 65A generator. The aftermarket units are all over the board with some being early style and some being 65A style. Some have no markings to give a hint as to which terminal is which (sounds like what you have). Internally one end of the field coils is wired to the F terminal. The other end to the positive brush. The positive brush is wired to the A terminal. The A terminal has a path to ground through the positive brush, armature and negative brush. The F terminal has the same path to ground with the additional resistance of the field coils. So the F terminal should read (depending on whether the generator is 6 or 12 volt) somewhere around 3 to 6 ohms more resistance than the A terminal when taking a reading between each terminal and ground. You need a quality meter to get an accurate reading (I've used the same Fluke digital meter for more than 25 years) ... Perry

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Re: How to identify generator and voltage regulator

#6

Post by Mark44 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:44 pm

The generator is 12V. I'll dig into it today to see how the two pins are wired.

WRT to the regulator, I believe that the one I have is the one in the VTwin catalog (Part no. 32-0071). The product description is
"Look-A-Like" Relay is exact shap and size of earlier 6V relay and will mount the same. Electronic design will function with 2 brush generators.

Perry,
I have a Craftsman digital meter. I'll take some ohm readings to see if my meter can pick up that 3 to 6 ohm difference.

Mark44
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Re: How to identify generator and voltage regulator

#7

Post by Mark44 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:03 pm

Using the 200 ohm setting on my meter, I found that the front generator terminal reads 3.4 ohms, and the rear terminal reads 8.4 ohms. That would make the front terminal "A" and the rear terminal "F", using Perry's reasoning.

Thanks John and Perry for taking the time to help me on this!
Mark

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Re: How to identify generator and voltage regulator

#8

Post by john HD » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:02 am

mark,

i looked at the 32-0071 regulator, i did not know they were making one like that. i am in the process of building one from scratch for my '55. the prototype is still under redevelopment. the mark one model needed a larger transistor.

do you have the instruction sheet for it? can you scan it and post it?

looks like you are getting closer to having it running.

john

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Re: How to identify generator and voltage regulator

#9

Post by Mark44 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:28 am

Sorry, John, I can't help you out. I don't have any information on that regulator. I'm not even sure that's the one that's on my pan other than they look the same.

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Re: How to identify generator and voltage regulator

#10

Post by john HD » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:47 am

i am curious how the "retro" relay connects to the generator. i see the kit in the cataloge has a jumper wire.
one might assume that wire is provided to go to the field terminal or the armature.

in your case the battery connection is obvious. what do you do with the other terminals? one for field and one for armature.

in a stock 3 brush application the other terminals are for the armature and the generator light.

on my prototype the field terminal has a built in resistance for base charging. perhaps you could use your ohmeter to see what of the remaining terminals have a resistance to ground or the case of the relay.

that should be the field terminal.

john

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Re: How to identify generator and voltage regulator

#11

Post by jdpan » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:53 am

John, only thin I could find online was a picture of the circuitry, maybe this will help some. I think this is the item in question. Sorry if its not.
79_R8375-47.jpg
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Re: How to identify generator and voltage regulator

#12

Post by john HD » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:55 am

here is a photo of my unit before a summer of destructive testing.

i melted it into a blob before the redesign!

john
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Re: How to identify generator and voltage regulator

#13

Post by Perry Ruiter » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:51 am

The 12 volt version of that regulator has been out for at least 6 years now. Over the years I've converted probably 10 or 12 32Es to 12 volt 2 brush and used those and they work great! The finished setup looks bone stock. They came out with a 6 volt version about a year ago and I've also done a few 32Es as 6 volt two brush generators for people that wanted to stick with 6 volt. I assumed you know of these John and just liked to tinker which is why you were working on your setup.

They are made by V-tronic in Holland and you can find installation instructions on their website:
http://www.v-tronic.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In a nutshell installation is A terminal (relay terminal on converted 32Es) to the regulator end with a single terminal. Generator F terminal (switch on converted 32Es) to the regulator terminal not marked BAT on the end with two terminals (this is what the supplied jumper wire is for). BAT terminal is regulated output to battery. Idiot light is wired to the A terminal as is done on 58 and up. You need an appropriate bulb (or diode) to avoid run on after switching the bike off when wired like this.

Be careful where you buy these from. There are some junk Chinese knockoffs. Presumably V-Twin is selling the real deal but I've never bought one from them ... Perry

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Re: How to identify generator and voltage regulator

#14

Post by Panshovevo » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:57 am

A word to the wise on digital multimeters. If you get an outrageous reading, especially when checking voltage on a running Harley, verify it with an analog meter before you flip out.
I have a Blue Point meter (Snap-On) that goes crazy when checking voltage on my Pan, with 12v generator and Bosch regulator, or my Shovel, with factory alternator and electronic regulator.
It caused me all sorts of grief before I figured out that the meter was at fault.

Regards,
John

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Re: How to identify generator and voltage regulator

#15

Post by john HD » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:11 am

john,

i am still an anolog guy, digital multimeters give me fits in my shop and at work!

perry,

yes i like to tinker! and my design (with dr. dick's help) is ment to be adjustable to account for accessories like spot lamps. and thanks for the link!

mark,

with perry's help this should show how to wire your regulator. http://www.v-tronic.com/vtronic/documen ... 20type.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

john

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