1963 FL front engine sprocket seal

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jack moghrabi
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1963 FL front engine sprocket seal

#1

Post by jack moghrabi » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:52 pm

Description: I would appreciate any advice anyone can pass on as far as installing a front sprocket oil seal on my 63FL

Good Morning from South Florida....

Two questions if I may:

1. I would appreciate any advice anyone can pass on as far as installing a front sprocket oil seal on my 63FL. To the best of my knowledge the motor had no seal originally but I'd like to cut out the oil seepage. Any brand/manufacturer I should look into?

2. With genuine embarassement, I have to admit I have never removed the cam cover to replace the cam cover gasket. This is after five years of ownership on this 63FL and pretty much doing everything on the bike except for getting into the bottom end. It's time to replace the cam cover gasket. Anything special I should be aware of (pitfalls etc...)?

Any advice from you all is highly appreciated!



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Re: 1963 FL front engine sprocket seal

#2

Post by Panacea » Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:51 pm

Hi, there is a seal on the sprocket shaft, JP#430-509 55-68 BT 1-800-397-4844. AS far as the cam cover goes, just remove the pushrods,cover screws,then tap cover with a rubber mallet swingingjust past the generator in an outward arc. easy does it, no screwdriver gouges. Remove cover slowly so as not to dislodge cam and droping lifters,LOL....MW

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Re: 1963 FL front engine sprocket seal

#3

Post by Jack_Hester » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:18 am

Take two putty knives (an inch and a half, or so) and put a sharp edge on each. Use them to pry the gear cover off. No screwdriver dings, and the putty knives will usually work right in. Saves the aluminum.

Jack

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Re: 1963 FL front engine sprocket seal

#4

Post by Cotten » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:32 am

I remove the generator and use a piece o' poolcue to tap through the hole to loosen the camcover. This makes the first puttyknife insertion a lot easier.

JackMo!
Are you running a belt?
Otherwise, the aftermarket seal will serve little purpose other than to mask the real cause of your seepage.

Note that it comes in its own retainer. Naturally, its spanner holes have a one in a thousand chance of being the same as your original, so be prepared to fabricate a couple of spanners using old rod rollers.

...Cotten

jack moghrabi
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Re: 1963 FL front engine sprocket seal

#5

Post by jack moghrabi » Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:33 pm

Thanks for the comeback Cotten, Jack and Panacea. The advice is duly noted.
Cotten you comment that if I'm running a chain in the primary the aftermarket seal will not cure the seepage is giving me pause. Yes, I am running a chain with a standard motor sprocket (non-compensating) and I do have the primary chain oiler blocked at the oil pump.
Basically I have four oil leaks I need to cure, namely at the distributor base, the cam cover, the tranny seal and what appears to be oil seepage from the motor sprocket. I'll pull the primary cover off this weekend and run her while I take a better, harder look at what's going on. Any thoughts from your end are always appreciated.

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Re: 1963 FL front engine sprocket seal

#6

Post by Cotten » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:36 am

Jackmo! (I hope that shortened handle does not offend?)

The Factory only 'retained" oil at the sprocket shaft with a reverse thread within the bore of the bearing race retainer that screws into the left case (also reverse thread), commonly called a 'slinger'. The seal kits that are available are replacements for the retainer which have been counterbored to accept a modern lipped press-in seal.

In original design, the slinger slowed oil from flowing out excessively, but allowed some through-flow for oiling the rollers, and spit some on the front sprocket as well. Drainage was collected within the primary case, along with breather mist and tranny mainshaft oil (also retained by a slinger thread) to drain at the bottom through a pipe that directs it dangerously close to the rear tire. (Please keep in mind that these were days when roads were oiled on purpose.)
Those who choose to run a belt primary drive have no choice but to install a seal at both shafts, and to divert the breather.

A secondary function of the slinger was that it served as an overflow if the machine sat for an extended period and 'sumped". This is when oil from the elevated tank naturally seeps its way into the crankcases, filling to the sprocketshaft to where it can safely drain to the primary, making the mess that so many find irritating.
If a machine fills completely because of a seal and still manages to start, the hydraulic forces can become legendary, like lifting the rear cylinder from the deck.
If your machine has the original slinger, but is put into service perhaps once a month or longer, then the volume of oil in the crank displays itself immediately as gurgling when kicked, then a puke out the breather, which is supposed to dump into the primary along with the slinger drool. Normally a start up under these conditions produces a bit o' smoke until the cases are evacuated, and quite often plugs will foul (whereupon a lot of riders start fiddling with the carb.....). Hydraulic forces push oil past the best of rings, and often out of base gaskets and the seam between motor cases.

The remedies are:

1. Ride more often.
2. Drain the oil if the machine is to sit for extended periods.
3. Dress the oilpump ball check to minimize seepage.
4. Give up whitewalls.

....Cotten

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Re: 1963 FL front engine sprocket seal

#7

Post by Panacea » Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:10 am

Cotten,thanks for that info, I was considering geting a seal for my 51 since I have a belt drive and get sick of cleaning goo off my scoot. It sounds like the original system may be the way to go. The trans main shaft also seems to give me problems, I've replaced the spacer and seal but it still seems to leak.The seal really only seals against the spacer so whatever gets between the spacer and the mainshaft seems to get on the chain/bike. I'm convinced it's just the nature of the beast, although my 49 was far less messy.MW

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Re: 1963 FL front engine sprocket seal

#8

Post by Cotten » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:25 pm

Panacea!

As I posted, if you choose a belt, you have no choice but to seal not only the motorshaft, but the tranny mainshaft as well.
I am referring to using a -65 and later maindrive gear, as it is counterbored to hold a seal around the mainshaft. (This is a short-lived seal, unless the gear's internal bushing is hone-fitted with a spacer and sprocket torqued upon it as if installed.)
There are sealed sprocket nuts available as well, however they are too fat to work with a stock Pan (or earlier) clutchub, and the gear must be counterbored anyway.

You referred to the main seal housed in the transmisson case. Slop from there also reaches the rear tire, but should be kept off the belt by a deflector and a proper chaincase. A worn spacer is the most common culprit, and some aftermarket ones are crude.
And a loose sprocket will leak through the splines.
Those who are particularly anal will goober up the sprocket, lock, and nut with a sealer when reassembling.

jack moghrabi
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Re: 1963 FL front engine sprocket seal

#9

Post by jack moghrabi » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 pm

Cotten! Always impressive. The extent of your knowledge about these machines is just spectacular.
We are lucky you are on this board but probably even more so that you are OK with passing on the knowledge.
And as far as calling me "JackMo" absolutely no offense is taken (actually it makes me smile). And to tell you the truth, by now (I'm 45 years Old) I've been called just about everything anyway....I'm still here and breathing strong. Thanks for the help.

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Re: 1963 FL front engine sprocket seal

#10

Post by Cotten » Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:15 am

It would have been confusing to call you Jack.
And the only thing novel about my "'expertise'" is that I am willing to spill it freely. And I types fasst.

...Cotten

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Re: 1963 FL front engine sprocket seal

#11

Post by BigMike » Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:21 pm

Gotta be careful with that spillage, the wizards and magicians of antique motorcycledom will hunt you down and put a stop to that.
There is a shop owner here who is supposedly the be all, end all of pre-evo Harleys. He is a faker. He won't touch a bike with the customer around, not even to check the obvious minor things. That prick makes a killing mostly just changing or setting points and adjusting valves at $350 a pop. (not too shabby for 45 minutes to an hour of his time, then of course, he tells the customer that it will take a few days, and that he had a bitch of a time with it)

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Re: 1963 FL front engine sprocket seal

#12

Post by Toymaster » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:26 am

jackmoghrabi wrote:
Cotten you comment that if I'm running a chain in the primary the aftermarket seal will not cure the seepage is giving me pause. Yes, I am running a chain with a standard motor sprocket (non-compensating) and I do have the primary chain oiler blocked at the oil pump.
Curious why you feel that the primary chain needs no oil? [unless I read this wrong?]
Charlie

jack moghrabi
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Re: 1963 FL front engine sprocket seal

#13

Post by jack moghrabi » Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:09 pm

Charlie, sorry about the delay in getting back to your question. Yes, I do have the primary chain oiler disconnected and blocked at the oil pump. Basically, I just keep the primary chain greased and what with the seepage I'm getting from the front engine sprocket shaft and the tranny mainshaft the primary chain gets plenty "wet." With the state of current conditions in my primary case, I'd be getting too much oil if I had the primary chain lubricated as per the original design.

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Re: 1963 FL front engine sprocket seal

#14

Post by Cotten » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:50 pm

Jackmo!

Ordinarily, the sprocket shaft slinger and maindrive gear slinger (also a reverse thread, but cut into the bushing instead of a bearing retainer) would not allow sufficient lube for the entire primary drive.
The main source is the crankcase breather.
The metering screw on the oilpump adds additional oil to the mist that naturally should emit from the breather passage.
Excessive mist would be a sign of other concerns, such as the timing of the breather gear, or the condition of the rings and cylinder walls.

....Cotten

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