Chain or belt

Transmission, clutch, chains and belts
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panhead
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Chain or belt

#1

Post by panhead » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:52 pm

Description: Opinions (chain od belt) are divided

Post by Panhead

Time for a new poll. Opinions are divided, so let's have a look at the figures!

Post by sidecar

I've only got about 150 miles on my new belt. I would have to say that it seems to make the most difference at highway speeds. The bike feels a lot smoother. Less vibration, I mean. I don't normally ride more than 50 mph unless I need to though. I like secondary roads at 40 to 50 mph. At these speeds I'm in 3rd gear so the belt doesn't seem to make any difference taking out vibration.

Post by dirtydistrict

I will try a belt conversion this year, use to ride at 70 mph on "nationale" roads; I will add my coments when the season will be over

Post by vintagetwin

I'm going belt. Aiming for a dripless Knuck & Pan. You don't want to end up like the two "utes" in Chuck's ad.

Post by king

I've run a belt for the last 8 years or so but with the 23 tooth sprocket equililent motor pully was definitely overrevving at highway speeds. So this year I switched back to a chain and am running a 25 tooth engine sprocket and a 25 tooth tranny sprocket. This will give me an overall ratio of 3.02. I hated to "rechain" as the belt drive has been smooth, quiet, and hassle free. I sure wish the beltdrive companies would wake up and smell the coffee and produce a range of front pully sizes. I'll let you know the results after I ride around a bit.

King

Post by vintagetwin

The belt pulleys are 31 tooth motor and 47 tooth clutch for a Knuck and pre-'65 Pan. BDL says this is it. Since 1970's, all ratios of pulley teeth have been tried. Nothing but 31/47 works. What I would like to hear, is someone with a Knuck or pre-'65 Pan, run in conjunction with this motor/clutch pulley set-up,...a 26 tooth transmission sprocket and hear-back that the highway rpm's at 62 mph have lessened. This is our last hope at solving this problem. I have been told by Stett that the 26-T trans. sprocket with this set-up will "blow my mind". I'm running with it as soon as I can get one of these machines back on the road.

Post by andrewjhester

VintageTwin -

If your wheel sprocket is 51T, at 2800 rpms you will be running a little over 74 mph. Your engine to wheel ratio will be 2.97 to 1. Way too tall. Are you running a stock bore and stroke? Or, is this a big-inch engine? Either way, you will need to keep it tached up.

Jack

Post by vintagetwin

0.010" over 74". I ride at 62 mph maximum on the freeway getting to an off-ramp to a web of farm roads. I ride 55 mph tops, on those roads with occasional blasts up to 65-70 mph on long-arced, banked (rubberized) asphalt secondary roads. 32 (r/t) mile runs minimum or i don't ride it. The absolute good as i can get feel to what i want at 62 mph and less, with great ratios between all gears is with a chain primary, and stock gearing in my '36-64 transmission with a 24-T motor sprocket, a stock toothed clutch sprocket, a 25-T trans sprocket and a 51 tooth rear sprocket. This is the feel i want in a belt drive at 62 mph. I'm in the same position as everybody else with a stock, 31/47 tooth motor/clutch/ pulley assembly and a 26-T transmission sprocket is said to make the motor lope along real slow at 62 mph. What i hear everyone saying is that a belt primary with a 25-T trans. sprocket feels geared too low at 62-65 mph.

Post by andrewjhester

VintageTwin -

Download the following program. It has a bunch of utilities that I put together over the years. The last program on the menu is for calculating ratios, rpms, speeds, and times of your bike, with all the sprocket numbers. I have put suggested numbers at each input. These are for a stock 45 WL.

Overhaul Calculator

All your data is saved to a .htm webpage type file. It asks for a name for the file, each time you run it. Give it a different name, each time, and you can print them out to compare the different ratios. When you download the program, put it in a folder to itself. All the data files generated by it are stored in the same folder. Saves a lot of pencil trimming, and punching on the calculator.

Jack

Note - 31T Eng, 47T Clutch, 24T Trans, 51T Wheel, 5.10x16" Tire, and 2500 RPMs will put you at 61 mph in high gear.

With: 24T Eng, 37T Clutch, 25T Trans, 51T Wheel, 5.10x16" Tire, and 2500 RPMs will put you at 62-63 mph in high gear.

Post by vintagetwin

Is 2,500 rpm's in 4th gear at 62-65 mph slow for rpms. If so that's what i want with a belt primary/ chain drive. Get me that with a 26 tooth trans sprocket and I'll be happy.

Post by andrewjhester

VintageTwin -

31T Eng,
47T Clutch,
26T Trans,
54T Wheel,
5.10x16" Tire,
and 2500 RPMs will put you at 62.59 mph in high gear.

Jack

Post by R

Is 2500 rpm some kind of "ultimate" for a stock 74" Pan ???

Post by vintagetwin

No 2,500 rpms means nothing to me. I don't have a tach, never used one. Don't see one offered in my '58-68 "Parts Manual". I have to guess at rpm's. I only know what feels good at 62 mph. If 2,500 rpms at 62 mph feels good and according to Jack's figures it does, then I want that in a belt drive set up. However, I have noticed that Jack put a 54-T rear wheel sprocket on my machine instead of the 51-T rear sprocket. Could you re-formulate those last fig's. Jack and give me the speed output at 2,500 rpm with a 51-T sprocket? Thanks.

Post by andrewjhester

VintageTwin -

The 2500 rpms comes from plugging the speed of 62-63 mph into the equation, with your chain setup, and a 51T wheel sprocket. You asked for the same ratio with a 26T countershaft sprocket and your belt drive primary ratio. You will need a 54T wheel sprocket with the 26T countershaft, to do so. In a previous post of mine (count 5 posts before this one, where I have the program for download), I put your exact chain drive setup at the bottom. I, again, plugged the 62-63 mph into the equation, and came up with 2500 rpms. If you run your present chain setup at 62 mph, and you have a 5.10x16" or a 5.00x16" tire, you will be taching 2500 rpms. No magic numbers. Just calculating your engine speed from the data you provided. Let me know if I can be of any further help.

Jack

P.S. - I forgot to answer your last question:

2500 rpms,
31T Eng,
47T Clutch,
26T Trans,
51T Wheel,
66.27 mph.

Post by vintagetwin

OK. Fine. Thank you. Now, is there anyway to tell me what the motor feels like at 2500 rpm. Geared with the belt drive 31/47, 26-T trans. sprocket and 51 rear sprocket,..... does the motor sound like it's "winding-out" (high revving) to accommodate the 62 mph I want to travel as we are cruising along.?
You see..... I want my 74" ride mellow. I want my exhaust baffled. I want an enclosed 1-1/2" belt primary. I want to wear small foam earplugs and my protest-beanie and drive no faster than 55 mph with occasional burst of excessive speed, for relatively short intervals..... and most importantly I (me personally) want to be able to THINK while I'm riding. I don't want to be pestered... by the sound of my motor... that keeps whining..."Hey, dad, I'm having to turn too fast to keep up with you! Gimme' a fifth gear!"
Jack, can you take us there?

Post by king

Vintage

If you want to check your RPM the easiest way is with the “Tiny Tach” . It is a small self powered unit that installs in about a minute and gives you a digital readout. The model 1C is setup for the Harley wasted spark. Only drawback is its up-date time of 2.5 seconds so you don’t get an instantaneous read out but at highway cruising conditions that is a minor problem. Cost is about $40. Look it up on the web at www.tinytach.com/
I don’t know if the 26 tooth tranny sprocket will fit in a stock application. My 25 tooth was a tight fit and ground into my clutch lever until I jacked it (the lever) up a bit. Also I had to remove the oil deflector from my inner primary case. But a 2.97 overall ratio should do the trick.
I checked out my Pan last summer running the “stock” belt drive and 25 tooth tranny sprocket (3.18 ratio). At 2500 rpm it felt good at 3000 felt like I was over revving. Spedo had gone south so I don’t know my speed but from the way people were passing me I recon it was between 60 and 65.

Good Luck

King

Post by andrewjhester

VintageTwin -

Keep in mind, that running a belt drive will never quite feel like the chain drive. I ran a primary belt for 10,000 or so miles, on a 76 FLH. It was a different feel. I came to realize the amount of vibration being transfered from the rear wheel to the drivetrain. I would much rather have a belt final drive and a chain primary. I believe that that is the smoothest setup. But, that's just an opinion, as I've never owned a bike with a belt final drive.
If you go with the exact same ratio as the chain setup, the engine will feel about the same, except a bit smoother, because of the belt eliminating a goodly amount of the rear chain jerk, that occurs on every bump in the road.
Now, to your last question. Engine will be slower than what you are accustomed to, with your present chain setup. I can't really say as to how it will change the vibrations that you are used to, or the harmonics created at other engine speeds. If you are running a stock FL/FLH transmission ratio (very low first gear), then stick with it, as you will be needing the extra help of the low gearing. If you are running one of the many close ratio setups (patterned mostly after the later Superglides), then you will notice that you feel as if you are somewhere between first and second gear. Not quite low enough. If you are under 200 lbs (like I'm not), then it probably won't be noticeable.

Jack

Post by vintagetwin

Good Jack. Motor will turn slower. That's me.
King, I don't know what year you have. A 26-T trans sprocket is suppose to fit and work without hitting anything on a '36-64 Big Twin. The '65 Alumn. primarys can only use the 25-T, as a 26-T will hit the case...so I have been told. My rigid frame is on the way back from Conn. There was alot wrong with it. i wonder how butchered up it's gonna look? I'll post a pix of that rascal after he gets off the Fed-Ex truck. Thanks for the help with the ratio stuff. i still have to go to the site Jack gave us. Leave it up there, OK?

Post by mbskeam

hello, I have done both, chain and belt, I am runing a belt right now. now I know a 26 t trans sprocket will hit the inner deflector, as it did on mine. I run a 25 t now with a BDL belt drive 31/47 combo, I think a 26 t will be too tall . I just had to clean up my clutch basket floor on the lathe, took about .012 off to clean it up, this sliping might be from having the 25 t sprocket or weak clutch springs,got new springs. At 55 mph the bike floats along pretty smooth. most of my riding is at 70 or so. ;D Mbskeam ps: rocks in my belt right in the middle all the way through. 50.00 down the toilet :'( oh crap!!

Post by 57stroker

I'm running a 3" open belt and changed from a 24T tranny sprocket to a 26T last weekend. I've only done about 7 miles on the freeway since, but it seemed to run along comfortably at 70. Lot less "buzzy". (Testing will continue!) The big difference was in town. At 35 mph before, the bike was too fast for 3rd and too slow for 4th. Now it cruises in 3rd just right. I put in close ratio gears when I built the bike and 1st is just a little steep. I ran my pressure plate nuts down a 1/2 turn tighter than before, cause it is easier to over power my clutch. I replaced my sprocket nut with a "super nut". It has a seal in the center of it and an o-ring on the sprocket side. Completely stopped the drop of oil under my clutch basket. (Guess I'm going to start buying chain lube again!) I had to grind a little off the boss on the back side of the clutch basket for clearence. I tried to face it off in the lathe, but the clutch hub is hardend. I'm just glad my chain was long enough!

Post by vintagetwin

Good info. Keep it coming. Give the belt problem a prison beating.
Spirals are next. Colony® makes those '54 handlebar plungers (9514-2). That's one problem solved. Next, how to modify the handlebar roller slots (if need be), and make the Colony® plunger fit into the Taiwan handlebar I.D.

Post by sidecar

I've got a distinct feeling that my rpm's dropped some after having the 1 1/2 inch belt installed. I'm going to drop a tranny tooth to 24. I ran 30 or 40 miles on the highway yesterday and at 55 mph I just about have to downshift to pass anyone. It seems to be at the very low end of the band.

Close to the end of my ride I ran the bike up to 70 mph in 3rd and it still it was not tach'd out. Probably would have floated at 80 or so. The 25 tooth is way too tall for my tastes. When I first got it together with 23 teeth it was too low. I jumped to 25 and I thought that was great, but the belt seems to have changed things. It may be just in my mind, but I swear that I have to slip the clutch more in first to get moving and I need to get to 50 mph for 4th gear.

my .02

Post by Paul

I went to a BDL, enclosed 1 1/2" belt on my 47 Knuckle about 5-6 years ago. I ran a 23, then a 24, and now a 25 tooth on the tranny. I had the tranny rebuilt using the close ratio gears, and it takes a bit of "slipping the clutch" to get going in first gear, especially if on a hill. On the highway, it will run at 70+ comfortably. Around town, I find that I can ride in 3rd gear alot of the time. A 25 tooth is the way to go for a good cruising gear. I have a basically stock Knuckle with a small Sifton cam, Linkert carb, stock bore and stroke. I like it MUCH better over a chain(less viberation,no oil puddles, cleaner)I think the belt drive would work a bit better with the original gears in the tranny, so 1st gear would be a little lower and easier to start out with, but I am very satisfied with it.
Paul

Post by weezeo

I too must throw in with the belt crowd. I have been running one since 1980 with 2 upgrades and they can't be beat for the vibration argument. I also run it open and never lost a pant leg, have greased up a few legs but no ragged pants. No stones but thats luck. Now all those calculations are Chinese to me But it sounds right.

Post by fasted53

You guys have put out a lot of good info here on this thread but now you got me worried. VT said that BDL said that a 31/47 eng. trans combo is it. This combo I'm about to install is a 24/38. Has any body tried this? Am I looking at some starting problems or is there some torque multifacation factors I'm not seeing? Jack, I was unable to get to your site could you run these # ot for me 1 more time. Thanks All, Ed

24/38 eng. trans.
22/48 Trans. wheel sprocket
140/80 rear wheel Appox. 24.75 tall

Post by andrewjhester

FastEd -

I ran the numbers for you with the following results:

1- gearing ratios give you an overall 3.45 to 1 engine to wheel ratio

2 - a 24.75" diameter tire at 60 mph: engine speed will be 2800 rpms; at 53 mph: engine speed will be 2500 rpms.

Note: the link I posted previously is not a website, but a download of a program that has this calculation as the last selection on the menu. You can download it to your machine, in some folder that you are able to get to with ease (like My Documents). Then, when you run it, and run the numbers for the sprockets, it will generated the above data, and save it to a webpage type .HTM file that you give a name to. Then, you can open that file and review your results. Or, print it.

Note2: Do not use your speedometer as an accurated reference. As soon as you change your tire size from the conventional 26.5" diameter, the speedo is not accurate. If you have an electronic ignition, most of these allow for connecting a tachometer. Get your hands on a good quality one (or borrow one from a buddy) and mount it to your handlebars. Hook it up and run up to the rpms (calculated using a 1 to 1 ratio of high gear) stated above. You will get an accurate wheel speed for each (2500 and 2800 eng).
Let me know if you need to run some more ratios.

Jack

Post by vintagetwin

Ed, The 31/47 motor/clutch pulley teeth combo is what Primo and BDL both use. I was told by Bob, the owner of BDL, that any other combo would shred belts. He said they tried several tooth combos in the 70's and 31/47 was the one that worked. What brand of belt drive do you have that has 24/38? Is it for a'36-64 Big Twin?

Post by Toolscum

'58 rigid with an 1 1/2" belt. I ride at 70 all the time & it's great, less vibration & looks cool!

Post by fasted53

VT, Front sprocket is marked PB 24,rear is maked PB38 both pulleys have tapered shaft with key way. Belt and pullies look good,But I dont have any history on this set.
Maybe I should leave the Tin off so I can watch it. I'll tell you guys one thing 10 years is too long between builds. I'm getting a heck of a lesson here but It's not
going to whip me!! Thanks, Ed

Jack, Thanks for the figures.

Post by weezeo

After reading all these numbers, I needed to check. I have my trans and motor sitting in my living room So I counted, Karata Belt remember, I have a 24t motor, a 24t Trans, and my basket is 38t......that is what is suppose to be shredding belts? Not Here Friends, I maybe counting different way But its the high spots on the gear/pulleys/sproketts any other way? I don't think its gonna matter much anyhow. But I am here to tell ya It works damn good to. Pictures next page bill

Post by weezeo

Someone Please count em!!!

Post by weezeo

http://www.sunnysouthflorida.com/horseless.html

Post by fasted53

Weezeo,A great relief to see your running this combo with out any problems. I count 24 0n your front sprocket. Thanks,Ed

Post by vintagetwin

Who made the pulleys? Primo?, BDL?, Karata?
Sure, "P.B" is it?. So proud of their product... that they put their initials on it.

Post by fasted53

VT, I believe my setup is a primo it looks alot like weezo's set. Ed

Post by weezeo

Mines Karata......and like stated 24t motor 38t basket w/ 24 trans and 51 rear makes it a good keeper upper with evo/blockhead/ shovelheads gimme head

Post by vintagetwin

Does Karata still make that same combo? My world was all aligned with knowledge of the 31/47, and now this.....boy howdy. i posted a pix of the belt measurement over on re-pop. An 8mm belt is 8mm between the c/l of each belt nub. Same for 11mm, etc.
I found an old email (Aug. 26, '03) from BDL about a different (than 31/47) ratio pulley primary set up. Here's what he said, " Sorry, no plans to make a 24-T belt drive pulley as it would serve no purpose, because there is no rear pulley to match it up with or a belt to be used. Our old 14mm drives back in the late 70's & early 80's had a 24T front pulley and a rear 36-T clutch and a 78-T wheel and 14mm belt. This drive was a failure because the front pulley was too small for the belt tooth, thus many belts broke because of this, so it was discontinued with no reason or desire to ever make it again- sorry, - bob g

Post by weezeo

They are still in business but I got mine present setup 15 yrs ago + - or so I imagine so I think its the mm that will get the more or less out of the teeth. Thats all i can imagine a 8 mm will have more teeth. I reckon.

Post by 52chopper

OK boys and girls, I completed the winter project. I put a suicide shift on, 1.5" internal belt, internal throttle, 12" apes and classical bicycle hand horn ... Yesterday I put a 120+ miles on the old girl. I popped 1 wheelie , dropped the clutch 2 x's :'( and almost fell over to the right a bunch ... But boy to love it all.... It's tough shifting with the left hand down by my ass and working the clutch with the left foot while making a right turns!! :-/ But shit, that's what riding is all about! Plus all day at all stops she was starting with 1-2 kicks! I think I'm going to love this summer!!!

Post by weezeo

52, I converted my PAN to a hand shift with a rocker clutch as opposed to suicide clutch about 20 yrs ago. I also ride a 66 Shovel w/ hand clutch. Don't know what type foot clutch you are running but i love the rocker (heel toe) as oppose to the car type suicide where as you have to hold it down. I love the shifting by my ass deal I think its nice But i wouldn't run the car type And I wouldn't do my shovel that way I don't know why I think PAN's are nice that way. Oh yea it don't take long getting used to the clutch setup I think it took me about 10 blocks of sweaving to get it right Plus you can run some hairy looking shift knobs I got a nice Bone Skull on mine this year. replace the dice of last.

Post by billy

weezeo, I must be running behind times, I modified a large Dice[die], that I drilled & tapped for my stick.
NICE KNOB, you got there!!! ;D

I don't know if you know a girl from up my way Katmandu, she used to work behind the counter of Stuart HD. Anyhow I built a basket 57 Pan Police for her
w/rocker clutch & tank shift. She never would even try to learn to ride it. My wife & I had fun "breaking it in"
for her.My wife is an ol' clutcher from way back also. The owner is now a full-time a Freelance photographer for a few biker mags. Anyway The 57 is in the latest "In The Wind" in reader rides. I tried to make her an offer before on the basket. No Go.. She finally traded it for a 96 roadking.
Some guy in Clearwater now has a right,tight Pan. :'(
I think I went off topic, way off. Sorry. I'll remove if
necessary. Just let me know!!

Post by weezeo

Billy, never off topic for me yer a member thats what its for Motorcycles!!!!!! Where do you live? I been down here in Broward County for 30 yrs. Off an On more on than off But have taken a few extended stay trips I thought you were from Pensacola or somewhere on the other coast. But no I never meet Kat... I just been putting pic's up of some Parts I am trying to sell to buy a wideglide check em out its at
http://www.sunnysouthflorida.com/pictures.html and http://www.sunnysouthflorida.com/pictures2.html
Let me know if don't load if you got a minute or 2
weez@SunnySouthFlorida.com

Post by billy

weezeo, I'm in S.L. County last 7 yrs. before that was WPB for about 11 yrs. Nice parts you got there!! You shouldn't have any trouble selling those to a "Purist".
They loaded pretty quickly for me! ;D Rare Parts!!

Post by panomania

i've been running a 3inch primary belt for about a year now. ive noticed the clutch action seems a little inconsistent. some days they grab and other days they don't. never happened with the chain. i also noticed that alot of guys in Florida run 2 1,1/2 inch belts on 3 inch sprockets. they said due to the wear from sand if one breaks they never miss a beat. good idea i guess.

Post by weezeo

I been doing some researching on these belts and the ratio with teeth etc...It just didn't sit with me all the numbers everyone was coming up with So... I have a 13.8 MM 78 tooth Gates belt Other sizes are 31 - 47 11 MM...BDL has a 2" 47 - 76, and a 11MM 31 - 47 1 1/2 along with other oddball size ones.
" 'Sorry, no plans to make a 24-T belt drive pulley as it would serve no purpose, because there is no rear pulley to match it up with or a belt to be used. Our old 14mm drives back in the late 70's & early 80's had a 24T front pulley and a rear 36-T clutch and a 78-T wheel and 14mm belt"". I guess he was wrong on that
I was wondring why the big difference. A good site for knowledge on these belts is http://www.ironeagle.com/webcart/frameset.htm
Scroll down on the left side for Belts, Kits etc.... hope this helps others

Post by Jim Kelly

I 've been running a 3" belt for 6 years now on my pan chopper with no troubles at all. It was easy to align and is maintenance-free. I always liked the look of the diamond tin primary, but the simplicity and smoothness of the belt is well worth it.

Post by Kirk S

My rigid '58 has a belt . It's great and I rarely ride at less than 70 with short bursts to 80. 70 is fine, but 80 gets a little buzzy, especially in the footboards. I've got an early 80's wide glide with a 21" and the bars really don't vibrate that badly even at 80. I'd love a fifth gear though.

Post by plumber

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of, the high-end feeling of wanting another gear at 63 MPH. I'm commited to a belt primary, but I don't think I'm going to like the feeling at 63MPH. If you told me that at 65 MPM, your 74 cu. in. machine started sounding a little wound-up at 65 MPH, I would know that, that's the same feeling I got with my 24T motor, 25T trans. That was OK with me. At 62-63 MPH. I'll just have to wait and see. 1-1/2" X 11mm Primo for me. Under tin.

Post by MCCUTCHEON4

Hello, I am considering using a primary belt drive on one of my bikes but have no idea which manufacturer is the best for my application ? There are several mfg's that I am aware of, BDL, Primo, Karata & probably more.
I also am aware of the numerous different designs, such as 8MM, 11mm, 14MM and varying widths.
The bike I want to try a belt on is a flat side Shovel lower with later out side oiler Panheads that have been flowed with over size valves, 80" wheels, 3-1/2" bore and mild cam. Its in a stock wishbone frame & glide front end with factory drum brakes front and rear, Its kind of stripped down lashup.
My goal will be: reduce oil leaks, smoother operation, dependablility & adding to the raw looks of this style
bike.
Any suggestions or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Post by 48pan

Hey everybody...
I just picked up a 1955 FL with a Primo belt primary already installed. It is a 1 1/2 inch (8mm) belt, with a 39 tooth motor sprocket, 62 tooth clutch drum sprocket, and has a 24 tooth trans sprocket. I went to the Primo website and this combo is listed under their classic belt drives, part number: PF-39-62. By the way the belt has written on it: Pacific Broach, which I noticed in a previous post sombody mentioned the letters PB on their setup. I've only ridden the bike about 10 miles so far, but it's a lot smoother than my old 48 Pan, which by the way I sold. I always wanted a birth year bike and now I've got it. I guess now you know how old I am...
Bruce

Post by plumber

How does the ride feel in 4th at 63 mph? Like it wants a 5th gear? I'm going to lower the motor rpm as much as is humanly possible by running a 26T trans. sprocket. The largest sprocket that will fit into a '36-64 Big Twin.
39/62? Aw man....now I gotta go ask Primo why I have a 31/47. Glad you put the part number on it. Pacific Broach? You'd think it meant Primo Belt, but Gates makes their belts. Wonder what year your belt drive was installed?

Post by 48pan

I've only ridden the 55FL about 30 miles so far and haven't gone over 50 yet. I plan on going over the bike this week checking and repairing anything that needs it and a little cleaning and polishing. Then on Sunday Sept. 26 there is a big antique bike show in Woodstock, IL I plan to ride to and display the bike, so I'll be cranking up the mph's then.
Bruce

Post by plumber

Yeah. Good. Let us know what it feels like running at 60 mph. Like it wants another gear or does it lope along at a comfortable rpm betwixt 60-63 mph?
Whaddever happen to Weezo?

Post by panpal

Really ??? What happened to Weezo? I haven't had much reading pleasure from Haggis lately either!

Post by duodave

It's been ages since we heard from our French chum, DirtyDistrict, also. I hope he is okay. You out there, D.D.? ???

Post by andrewjhester

I decided to move over to this existing thread, to continue a response to Plumber's reply (on the Help! Using 2 quarts in 50 miles! thread). Let's assume that all our bikes are 4-speed (or some 3-speed/rev). Unfortunately, there are not enough belt drive ratios to cover the ratios that we can get with engine sprocket changes, alone. Usually, belt drives are a one-time purchase for most people, and tranny sprocket changes are the only means to compensate for an uncomfortable or undesirable combination. Some will have retrofitted the rear brake/sprocket with disc brakes and a sprocket that can now be swapped for different sizes. My preference is still towards a primary chain, just to give me the options of more ratios.

Now, combined with an original FL tranny gearing (granny low gears), I can now run a bit taller tranny sprocket, that will afford me the means to pull off with a loaded bike easily, and still have a lower top end rpm range. Or, if I want to really load up for a road trip, play with the combination of engine and tranny sprockets, until I have the compromise that I want.

I understand that not everyone will want to always be swapping sprockets. It's not as simple as it may sound. But, I don't mind doing it, as it's what I like to do, anyway. This being said, I haven't done it in a while. But, the 59 is coming up for a total rebuild. I will start out with the 24T engine/22T tranny combination, for break-in. But, once that is done, I will begin the process of trying the combinations, because is will take over the role of the road machine that I will have for heavy loads (the 76 FLH will be in storage for a couple of years).

Many of you have followed my posts about my WLA being my primary road machine for awhile. It will. The 59 FLH will be there for the long hauls, too. Just someone else on it. Eventually, so will the Indian Chief. And later, the 76 will take it's place back on the road. My major road trips will be planned around all machines being along. But, that takes this thread away from it's origins.

As long as good quality primary chains are made, and good quality drive chains are made, I will run them. It is a nostalgia thing. But, it also puts me in a crowd that is unique and seperate from the Evo/TC/custom following. I don't fault anyone who participates with this following, as most people will have an old bike and a new. I choose to remain a dinosaur in my preferences. In doing so, I am forced to maintain it. I'm forced to inspect and anticipate it's needs. I am forced to care for it and always have in the back of my mind that it's time to check something. Of course, I am forced to always defend my position. That's easy. My answer has always been: 'Anyone can own a new bike. But, how many are capable of owning a piece of history? How many are capable of always maintaining one?'. Very few want to maintain one for very long. That's why they sit in the garage/shop, or on display. That's another story and tagent, too.

Options of ratios are my objective. I can't think of the number of times in the past, that I've had a bike of mine up on the stand, with the primary drive removed. And, someone drops by and asks me 'what's wrong with your bike?'. That is still the view that people have of Harley riders. My answer of 'nothing's wrong' is not enough. Most can't understand that things have to come apart, to try something different. Whenever I explained what I was doing, and had a response of 'why don't you just ride it and leave it alone', my comeback was always 'that's exactly what you need to do. I never will.'.
Sorry for the many tagents from the original thread. I like the option of having as many ratios as I can think up. But, I will never fault you for never wanting to touch your bike. I'll touch it for you. But, only after mine are touched.

Jack

Post by plumber

;D I've been spending money on motor sprockets trying to find out what would give be the comfortable ration of sprockets at 63-65 mph on my '59 74" Big Twin. I was getting secure with a 24T motor sprocket, 25T trans, and yer basic 52T wheel sprocket. It was getting good to me at 63 mph. Satisfied. I was going to even go one further and put a 26T on the trans, but got drawn over to a belt primary. I'm running a 26T trans sprocket on the belt set up to try and mellow the ride out and compensate for the rigid fixed ratios of the motor and clutch belt primary pulleys. If you need to experiment on your own, it's your money. So go out and buy a handfull of sprockets and try it yourself.

Post by andrewjhester

Plumber -

Fortunately, the money was spent over a long period of time, and I have accumulated the sprockets that I need to experiment with. When the 59 is back on the road, I'll resort to my former method of removing the primary drive on Saturday morning, making the swap, and spend the afternoon getting use to the change. I have some straight stretches, some steep hills, and plenty of winding roads, all within an hour's ride. So, each weekday afternoon, I will try a different road, to see if I like the change. Loaded and unloaded. Then, make another Saturday morning swap, and try it again. I'm looking for to it, as the 76 was setup and the 59 was never changed. Now, the 59 will be the focus. Same with the WLA. I've got a pretty good assortment of engine sprockets, and two transmission sprockets. So, break-in will be unloaded. Experimentation will be to taller and taller gearing, until I find what a good road gearing will be, within the bounds of the tranmission ratios. Lots of fun.

Jack

Post by plumber

Yeah Jack, when I "say go ahead and spend a gob of money on sprockets," I'm not directing the quote to you, I'm just "hollering at the TV screen," and speaking to any and all pilgrims that read these posts. You can start out in this building stuff and take only one wrong turn and have it costing you 100 bucks here and there on parts you can't return. In doing so, a person is building himself into an eventual swap meet vendor. About 5 years of purchase mistakes will qualify you as a fully stock vendor of mistakes. Building motorcycles is serious business. Alot of time you'll never get back, and alot of clutter of no-good-to-you-parts. Been there done that, been there done that, just like "groundhog day."
The first purchases a pilgirm must make is all the service and parts manuals for your machine. #1 priority, then you can speak the language of Harley-Davidson. Without the part numbers, you don't know what you have. This building is a 30K investment on the painful installment plan. Are you in or out?

Post by andrewjhester

Plumber -

How right you are about building yourself up to a swapmeet vendor. I'm a living testimony to that. Some of the very reasons I have some of these sprockets on hand. And, they've been around for a long time. Hope some of the 'newbies' reading these posts can learn from our trials and mistakes. Nothing wrong with having your own stash of parts. But, maybe the stash can be purchased on purpose. And, not as a 'maybe it'll work' part.

Jack

Post by panfreak

Another great thing about having all these extra parts kicking around is being able to give away stuff to friends in need. Goes a long way, and makes me feel good. Karma, I think.
Chew.

Post by plumber

Good point. Trade considerations are always good for both parties. Give aways special. I think I can remember every part I have been given and by whom it was given.

Post by GP3442

CHAIN
BELT IN THE PRIMARY- KEEPS THE FLOOR CLEAN.

Post by jimmy

i run a belt drive on my 56 pan 25tooth cammed up a little , linkert carb, std heads . the sweet spot is about 65, at that speed the engine is smooth and singing its beautiful song. around town i use third gear alot. i notice that when i gas it hookup is more instantaneous. the belt is quiet and no chain jerk. ive had lots of bikes with chain primarys and they are fine but i sure like my belt drive. by the way i sure get a kick reading the forum . snow is on the ground panhead is in the garage cant wait for spring . it will be awhile here in alaska

Post by king

Hi Jimmy

When you said "25 tooth" have you found that magical 25 tooth equivalent motor pulley or are you using a a 25 tooth tranny sprocket?
My preference is belt drive but to get the highway performance I require I have gone back to a chaindrive with 25 tooth engine sprocket and 25 tooth tranny sprocket. 65-70 seems about right now.
Have a good hibernation!!

King

Post by vintagetwin

Hi Jimmy,
Can you explain your motor pulley tooth count and clutch drum tooth count and trans. tooth count more to the tooth? Thanks for the hope of having a low rev putt in 4th gear. Committed to belt here.

Post by jimmy

hey this is jimmy up in alaska sorry about not getting back to you sooner about the belt drive on my 56 pan.im using a B.D.L. enclosed primary kit that i ordered from v twin for my year. ive got a 24 tooth tranny sproket stock clutch and a 51 tooth rear . i dont have a 25 tooth that was a slip of the finger. im a terrible typist i wish i could be a little better at it , only potential secertaries took typing class looking back it might have been a good way to meet the ladies. another thing i wanted to mention i put a pair of S T D heads on my pan and i put about 20 miles on then broke a valve spring and bent a valve after tearing down i found another spring with a crack i sent them back and after two weeks they determined faulty springs caused the problem they replaced the springs and the bent valve but i didnt get any thing my time and labor even though it was there fault. after that no more problems and the bike runs beautiful. i just had to put my two cents worth about the S t d heads. talk to you later

Post by panpal

Has anyone ever used this style? I have been using this type of belt drive for several years (Not on my bike though) and the belting tooth design seems to hold up better that the straight tooth style belts. There may also be more choices for sprocket ratios. No need for flanges on the sides of the pulleys.
[url]http://www.goodyearindustrialproducts.co....od-eaglepd.html[/url]

Post by plumber

who makes pulleys with the same pattern?

Post by panpal

Same people! But they will not bolt right on. A set up would have to be manufactured from the stock pulleys. I purchased all parts through Applied industrial technologies, formerly Bearings and transmissions.

Post by adjustaglide

Ya know, I was just wondering if a taller (17 or18) inch rear rimtire would make finding a ideal rpm/mph ratio easier. Then fine tune her using a smaller countershaft
sprocket. Whadda you guys think? I run a Primo belt with a 25 tooth and would like a little taller gearing,( a 26T is in the works for the next 6 months of winter in Saskatchewan ) and I would like to see what old blues" would look like runnin 18" rubber. ya never know till you try, do you!

Post by billy

adjustaglide-
The tire height is a variable for tuning the gearing.
If you are running 'modern rubber' they are about 25.4 "
tall. While an Avon SM Mark II 'full profile' is 26.4" overall difference of 1" better for lower RPM's on hi-way.
Reguardless of the rim size, the 'tire height' is the determining factor.
Generally, a taller rim is still about the same by smaller tire height. Once you look at those figures, you can decide.

Post by mbskeam

hello
I have seen this on a bike this last may at the bike show . the guy has a shop (north coast thunder bikes) he and his wife race a fuel sportster. I got a flyer on the drive set up , but can not find it.This was on a project shovel head that was for sale at there display. This belt set up looked bitchen. I can get the info from them if anybody wants it.
mbskeam

Post by 108 on Jan 4, 2005, 4:06am

I have had a 1 3/4" belt in the original tin primary cover on my + .020 "48 FLH with tank shift and short stroke clutch for over 20k. It's probably the single best thing I ever did to it! Of coarse no more chain oil plus a big improvement in ease of shifting . I have settled on 25T trans sprocket as the all around best (at least for my combination) Remember ,when you gear up for lower highway rpm, you sacrifice ease of take-off and acceleration rate. Thats why they invented over-drives!

Post by gordon

Well I got a 28 tooth eng pully a 44 tooth clutch basket a 24 tooth trans sprocket and a 51 tooth wheel sprocket . the bike is not done yet but when it is i will let you all know how well this combo works.
Gordon

Post by rigidpanman

im not sure it is covered here,what are the stock numbers for all the various sprockets on a 1949 fl pan.thanks

Post by cadillacman58 on Nov 25, 2005, 9:12pm

I converted to belt last year on my 1963 Duo-Glide and does not have any trouble with the rpm,it feels the same as with the chain. The trouble i have is that the belt breaks right off after about 850 miles,i think first that the clutch was broken but after i take of the cover i find out that the belt was broken. The engine and trans lines up ok and there is no other fault as i can see,how long is the normally lifetime of a belt ,its no trouble to change it at the roadside but it is no fun with the comments from the damn bypassing riders of Japanese custombikes that not understand that this is a over 40 years old veteran . I used to rides around 70 mph at the highway and drives around 1000 miles every season and dont have any bigger troubles , the panhead works very fine but a 5th gear would be nice sometime.
Cadillacman58

Post by Panhead

I had my first belt 19 years and a bit more than 850 km's. How much play did it have?

Post by panpal

Cadillacman58,

I hear they make 5 speed gear sets that go in your 4 speed case. I am looking into a set myself.

Post by cadillacman58

Hello Panhead .The play of the belt is so much that i can move thew belt up and down about 3/4 of a inch with cold engine and about 1/2 inch with the engine warm, is that maybe to tight. I drives with 1-1/2 inch BDL kit with the original tin cover so i can have the original look.Hello PanPal , I heard about the 5 speed gear sets too but have not find out who made those. Here in Sweden it is winter now so we have a lot of time to repair and service our machines so it been nice to put one of those in when we waiting for the summer to come. Drive safe everybody.

Post by 1950bobber

Go to SPUTHE web site...makes the best 5 speed and uses stock Harley gears...it also can come with a kicker and fits the Shovelheads ($2500 approximately)...can't see why it wouldn't fit on a pan...might have to question the tranny mainshaft length for electric vs. kick start only...give Sputhe a call..he'll answer the phone most likely and he's smart as hell about this stuff..he's an engineer and been doing this stuff for ages!
"1950 Bobber"

Post by Panhead

BDL info: proper tension of belt is 1/2" total up and down on top of belt and 1/4" on each side of idler.
So the tension you mentioned should be OK.

Post by panpal

50 bobber
Thanks, I couldn't think of the name Sputhe. I heard you could put 5 or 6 speed gears in a 4 speed case with kicker. The gears have to get pretty thin though. Wow, that's some bucks for this set up!!

Post by 1950bobber

PanPal....actually the gears DON'T get thinner...the tranny has a spacer between the tranny case and the kicker cover...I'm guessing an inch or so. This obviously sticks the tranny out a bit further on the bikes right side (kicker side) but the good news is you will clear most if not all exhaust pipes...letting you have the added clearance to run the stock kicker arm of the early Pans AND have a better choice of exhaust pipes to run. If you think $2500 is big bucks...try Baker's price for a 6 speed at $3500 or so! Sputhe is much more economical and I 'd say 5 speed gearing is more than you might need in our old Pans...should give you at least 200 RPM or more RPM's top side using the stock Harley 5 gears. Combine that with a low geared first gear and a 25, possibly 26 tooth tranny sprocket...that should be a good top end! I'm only theorizing here, haven't done it myself...but I bet Cotten, Panhead or Jack could help us out!
Jim in Seattle "1950 Bobber"

Post by panacea

If the pan spins to fast, (option A) slow down, (optionB)gear-up. And is it the motor thats whining?...MW

Post by panacea

If the pan spins too fast, (option A) slow down (option B) gear-up. Is it the motor thats whining?

Post by reddog74usa

Look up supermax belt drive.net and call Phil. He takes the time to talk to you about your specific application and has different ratios available for tapperd and splined shaft engines.

Post by oldschool

Hi Guys I was told if I go over 24 T trans sprocket it will not clear the trans case cover! Im running a 24 on the trans and the Motor after getting rid of my belt and my top speed is still about 55 - 60 Does anyone know if they make a longer primary chain then 82 links! I know the primary chain wont work with a 25 0r 26 tooth sprocket unless its a little longer Im not looking for 75 mph just 60-65 range for my '59 Pan thanks Jerry

Post by davester

Chain for sure.

d.

Post by jwbodine

my stock 49 runs best with 24trans sprocket, I have a 51, 24, with 11/2'' belt drive, I have all the gears and have treid them, 25 is to tall engine lopes at 60 mph, this has been treid and test long before we came along, go with the 24 and ride it.

Post by mrpanhead

i had a primary belt for 7yrs now i love it no more adjustmemt runs smooth and tranny shifts better

Post by stroker

chain will get you HOME

Post by pan58head

Hello All i have been reading this chain vs belt drive and decided I was going to covert my 58 to belt to eliminate an oil leak. We'll as fate would have it, the swap meet gods blessed me with a great deal. I bought a complete belt drive setup (new no box) for $50. I was tols it was late pan or shovel. The front pully fits fine but I'm going to have to machine the starter ring flange off to fit in my stock primary. We'll why I'm asking is I would like to know if any body know who makes this kit. the front pulley is 29 and the rear is 45. The only makings on the pulleys are 1G3 , but the belt I would like to replace(A litte dry cracked) has the number 400s11m 81-3 phase 3 super torque by good year. 96 teeth 1 1/2 wide about 42 1/2 long. Thank in advance SSB

Post by king o

Pan58head

It looks like you have an electric start version of an 11 mm set-up.
The notations on the belt might indicate that it is a Primo Phase III kit but the 1G3 designation is a mystery to me.
I looked in the V-Twin Cat. and they list a 421/2" 96 tooth 11mm belt by Gates only difference is that the rear pully is rated at 44 teeth. Gates part # is 30884x1 1/2.
Great score for $50!! It will be worth the bit of work to get that ring gear off and a new belt.

King

Post by pan58head

Thanks King, I found the belt in teds also. Just curious why 44 teeth, mine is 45(counted it 3 times). As for the starter ring I'll machine that off on luch break at work. Just would like to figure outwho made this set up later SSB

Post by Vintage Twin

1-1/2" x 11 mm. All the modern motor pulleys are 31 tooth. All the clutch shells are 47 tooth, to the best of my knowledge. Any other combinations "tended to tear up the belts" is what BDL® told me. My Primo® pulleys are 31 motor and 47 clutch. I'm going to try the 26-T trans sprocket and see if it's too tall at 62 mph. I'll be reporting back before too long. My name is Plumber and I've (fallen), forgotten my password (and I can't get up ;D) or log on.

Post by plumbhalenski

Back...... .....with a new handle. My next project is to install Tedd heads on my Knuckle-Glide with upswept level shotguns and KH barrrel mufflers w/ pix. Huckin' A. Joes......I have a rolling chassis with brakes that woik Huckin' Joe's mama, I kain't find Finnerio..but no problem with a shutter button

Post by 1950bobber

My BDL is 39 front/62 rear 1.5"/8mm.

1050 Bobber

Post by caschnd1

SuperMax Belt Drives offers 4 different primary drive ratios for pans and shovels. These are 1 1/2 x 14mm belts.

37-27 1.37 to 1
38-27 1.40 to 1
37-25 1.48 to 1
38-25 1.52 to 1

-Craig



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