Tranny removal

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LittleAl
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Tranny removal

#1

Post by LittleAl » Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:51 pm

Well been doing some riding on the Pan. worked out a few minor problems but I still have issues with the tank shift. I made minor adjustments over and over and still can't get it to shift as it should. Also the speedo ain't working. with a drill on the cable on the tranny side it works. the tranny had a plate covering the speedo drive hole so I had replaced it with a new repo drive. The problem must be in the tranny. also I'm convinced now that I have to adjust the shift forks. for those of you that don't remember, I swapped a ratchet top for the hand shift top but never adjusted the shift forks.

Anyway, the tranny has to come out. My question is, can I just take the outer tin off, clutch basket, rear drive chain and rear exhaust header and slip the tranny out from the right side with the mounting plate? will there be enough room without removing the oil tank? it looks like it will make it, close but make it.



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Re: Tranny removal

#2

Post by panz4ever » Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:56 pm

Al, yes once you do what you have stated, the tranny and plate come out together. They actually slide in and out quite easily. Do you have the fork adjustment tool?

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Re: Tranny removal

#3

Post by RUBONE » Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:03 pm

Al,
The tranny comes out the left side with the mounting plate still on it. It can even be removed with the clutch and inner primary still attached. No need to mess with the oil tank.
Good luck
Robbie

LittleAl
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Re: Tranny removal

#4

Post by LittleAl » Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:13 pm

Thanks guys. gonna try and get it out tomorrow after work, traveling around today for Fathers Day (her dad, my pop, you know the drill, feeling lucky at 88 my pop is still here)

Robbie, typo there? it's gotta come out the right side right?

How would the clutch be able to stay on? what am I missing?

no fork adjustment tool. is there any way to do it without the tool?

a guy I know from another forum has the tool, lives about 1 1/2 hours from me, but I'm going on 2 trips over the next two weeks, he works, I work, tough to get together. The head mechanic at my local dealer learned on Pans and has a lot of experience with 4 speeds and offered to look over the tranny when I was building the bike, I know he has the skill, but doubt he or the dealer has the tool. he was going do it "on the side". Maybe I should check with him, but really I'd rather do it myself for the learning experience. The instructions for doing it in the SM seem pretty straight forward. When I was up at Rhinebeck last week I even asked, thinking I might eventually (now immediately) need it. Not one vendor had one that was willing to sell one.

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Re: Tranny removal

#5

Post by RUBONE » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:28 pm

NO TYPO, Left side, and it can be removed with the entire clutch and inner primary on! You could buy a new one from H-D as that assembly in the old days. Trans plate stay on the box, just unbolted from the frame. Kicker cover can even stay on by rolling the arm down and sliding it through. No messing with oil lines or exhaust (unless you have crossover duals). I can remove a whole assembly in 1/2 hour.
Robbie

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Re: Tranny removal

#6

Post by RUBONE » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:30 pm

Al,
Another thing. I have a couple of those tools. If you need it you pay postage both ways and you can use it as long as you need to!
Robbie

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Re: Tranny removal

#7

Post by LittleAl » Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:14 am

ok, you got me but don't be TOO proud of yourself, I'm a self confessed idiot, LOL

seriously, never even thought of that!

I got it out, took me about an hour so I don't feel too bad compared to your 1/2 hour. I greatly appreciate your offer and may take you up on it. I see that I may have another problem too.

After taking off the clutch hub the large nut that holds the sprocket onto the main drive gear (35065-38) was totally off and just laying on the shaft. the locking tab washer that's supposed to be in front of the sprocket was BEHIND it. between the sprocket and the bearing. It makes me suspect of what else might be wrong. supposedly this tranny was rebuilt 200 miles before I bought the bike. the main drive gear moves in and out too, about 1/32. Is this normal? oh and the oil deflector is missing (35159-39)

I'm not gonna take the top off until I hear from some of you guys about what to keep my eye out for. I'm going on a road trip for a few days too, Wednesday to Sunday. I just need a few days with some bro's, Skyline & the BRP. I would like to at least know what I'm facing when I get back though. if I find nothing wrong maybe Robbie I'll arrange for UPS pick up the tool (I have an account with UPS) so I'll have it when I get back and then I can send it right back to you. Thanks again for your offer!

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Re: Tranny removal

#8

Post by RUBONE » Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:30 am

Al,
It is normal for the main drive gear to move, all that holds it in place is the sprocket nut. Don't push the main drive gear in to far as all the rollers can fall out, a bad situation. Sounds like a thorough inspection will be in order though to make sure all is well inside! I'll PM you my phone number so you can decide if you want the tool.
Robbie

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Re: Tranny removal

#9

Post by LittleAl » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:05 am

well of course I didn't wait to take off the tranny top, lol

I found a few problems right off the bat with my limited knowledge. You can see all the things I saw, in the picture below. The rust you see is really close to zero, I don't know why it looks so bad in the picture. Everything operates smoothly including the shift forks on it's shaft

The worm type gear to drive the speedo is smooth. is this the wrong shaft or tranny for my '54? What is the solution?

The shifter fork (left side of picture) seems bent. it almost looks like it's made that way but I thought they were both the same, although they do have different part numbers (34159-36 and 34158-36). Maybe it's just my lack of experience

The last thing, which probably more then anything else is contributing to my crummy shift feel, is the lever (34448-51) in the tranny top has lots of play. I can hold the gear inside the top with one finger and the lever moves quite a bit before it starts to try and move the gear. without doubt this is creating LOTS of slop up at the tank shift lever. no wonder why I'm having so much problem finding and hold a gear no mater how many times I've adjusted the shift rod. If I remember when I put the top all together the lever has a square shaft that keys into the gear. solution is gonna be new gear, leather washer and lever? I'm assuming the slop is in the square shaft and the square hole in the gear?

Robbie, I got your PM. I don't want to hold the tool long so I'll wait out getting it from you until after I have everything else fixed and I'm ready to put it back together.
Transgears.jpg
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Re: Tranny removal

#10

Post by RUBONE » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:29 am

Yup, you got troubles Al. The shift fork is bent, it should be flat with no offset. They are different too, the diameter of the shifter clutches are different on the two shafts. That milky looking oil indicates water in it, and condensation will cause those rust spots. The speedo drive spiral gear is totally missing! It is a press fit on that smooth machined portion. The pitting in the gears is not horrible but if the bearing surface look like that you are never going to make it last long. A full teardown appears to be in your cards. It would have to happen to press a speedo gear on anyway. As far as the lever slop in the top it is usually the shaft to lever fit. They are assembled asa press fit into a square hole and peened to hold together. The easy fix is welding the shaft to the lever. For a rider this works fine. For a correct (factory look) repair often a new assembly is the only way to go. That box was not rebuilt in the recent past! Or it was used as ballast to keep some wise-guy at the bottom of the East River!
Keep the pictures coming as it comes apart, they tell the tale.
Robbie

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Re: Tranny removal

#11

Post by RUBONE » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:33 am

One last thing Al, measure the end play on the countershaft assembly to the case bushings. This will save time on reassembly.
Robbie

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Re: Tranny removal

#12

Post by LittleAl » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:58 am

well the surface rust, and it is only light surface rust probably is from the 3 years this tranny sat outside in the bike I bought it in. Now that the tranny is coming apart a light wipe with emery cloth will take care of that. the drops of water actually in the oil are not surprising since I took it out in the rain tonight, lol On disassembly though I will be looking for more serious signs of rust and/or pitting of anything

anyway, onto the more serious stuff.

looked at V-Twin & Tom at NOS parts catalogs and as usual Tom is better priced and probably a better piece. both forks, the lever & shaft, the lever gear, leather washer and the speedo gear for about $135. I've bought a lot of stuff from Tom during my build and I was happy every time.

The lever isn't loose at the peen on the exterior end, it's sloppy into the square hole of the gear so I might as well replace the gear, lever/shaft and leather washer. the bushing is new, I replaced it when i first bought the top off eBay. I bought the top complete except the shift drum and bought that separately. I'd rather play it safe and only put it back together once and feel secure it's all good.

I guess I'll be reading the entire tranny section of the SM and asking a lot of stupid questions but in the end I'll have a reliable, good functioning tranny.

I'll order up the parts Monday and they'll be waiting for me next Monday when I get back to work after my 5 day therapy session on the BRP, lol. So shift your brain into gear and be prepared for my questions.

Thanks again!
oh and be careful with the east river references, my last name ends with a vowel, LOL

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Re: Tranny removal

#13

Post by Ohio-Rider » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:29 am

Al, As was mentioned, be sure to check and record your side clearances before tearing things down. Also take lots of photos for your reference when putting everything back together. By the looks of things I’d be guessing that the third gear bushing on the main shaft is likely shot as well. These trannys are pretty easy to work on though so you shouldn’t have much trouble. Good Luck

LittleAl
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Re: Tranny removal

#14

Post by LittleAl » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:07 am

any hints or pitfalls to watch for when taking it apart?

I'm off on a few 1000 mile run Wednesday morning, back Sunday night so I won't start on it until Monday night after work. the parts I ordered from Tom should be waiting for me Monday when I get back to work.

I've done just about everything on bikes over the years that you can do without splitting cases, never done that and I've never been in a bike tranny before either.
The only tranny work I've ever done was many years ago when I had some antique cars. Rebuilt the transmissions on my old MGA and my Morgan. Guess the overall technique can't be all that different?

I'm sure I'll have tons of questions as i go and I'll read through the SM sections a few times.

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Re: Tranny removal

#15

Post by LittleAl » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:03 am

Well I read through the SM tonight and rebuilding the gearbox does seem pretty straight forward. Now of course I'm anxious to get going on it, lol

so what's the deal with the end play on the countershaft? Robbie & Ohio both mentioned it so I'm thinking it's important. Exactly what measurement am I concerned with? see, I told you I'd have lots of questions and I didn't even start yet!

thanks guys!

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