Handshift woes...

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Kuda
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Handshift woes...

#1

Post by Kuda » Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:30 pm

So a big chunk of something bounced off the road and ripped the end of my old ratchet shifter right off the trans, jockey lever and all. Even trashed the shifter pawl on the way through. Couldn't find a replacement shifter pawl (V-twin is backordered indefinately) so I decided to move up my plans to go back to the factory tank shift. Already had all the parts but the lid, picked up a handshift lid a few weeks ago. And that's when the trouble started...

The lid appears to be a repop, no casting numbers at all. No problem for me, mine's just a daily rider. But I think the drum and the lever gear (?) are also repop because they don't have ANY indexing marks on them and the drum is cast with a "WEP+" on it. I tried to time it as best as I could using pictures from the manuals, but when I put it all back together I've got two problems: 1) it's really, REALLY hard to shift, and 2) there doesn't seem to be any way to line the shifter up to the gate. There's not enough "throw" on the shifter to engage both first *and* fourth gears, it's one or the other. And second is sorta hit or miss too. Seems once I add pressure to make it go all the way back into first, it'll pretty much shift normally through second and third, but won't engage fourth. Then coming back down it'll sometimes hit third, rarely hit second, and only sometimes will hit first.

Couple of variables in the mix: the shifter rod I've got has a clevis on the shifter end and an L shape with a washer and cotter pin instead of a clevis on the trans lid end. Should I cut off and thread the end of the rod and install a clevis to tighten it up? Also, is there a set adjustment for the detent spring? If I screw it in until it's just slightly tight (enough to keep it from backing out) then there's NO way to shift it. If I back it out until I can actually move the lever then the screw is actually wobbling in the lid and the detents aren't easy to find. Doesn't seem to be any middle ground. I know this is a lot of info, but after wasting two full days pulling and replacing the trans I'm gettin' a wee bit frustrated. Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated. And if anyone's got an OEM four speed handshift lid they want to part with, I'm all ears...

-Kuda
'49 panchop



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Re: Handshift woes...

#2

Post by steinauge » Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:58 pm

Kuda it sounds like you have one of those chinese jockey lids,I have never seen one that works.Try using your HD shift drum, that usually seems to cure the problem. If not let me know I believe I have a spare pawl carrier for your ratchety lid. :)

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Re: Handshift woes...

#3

Post by Kuda » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:18 pm

steinauge wrote:Kuda it sounds like you have one of those chinese jockey lids,I have never seen one that works.Try using your HD shift drum, that usually seems to cure the problem. If not let me know I believe I have a spare pawl carrier for your ratchety lid. :)
Can I use the drum from the ratchet top in the handshift lid? As I recall, that drum didn't have the index either (probably an aftermarket too), but at least the gear had an index so it was doable. I'm already into this a ways to make the handshift work, but if I can't find a good drum and gear or a whole good lid, I might very well make you an offer on that ratchet...

-Kuda

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Re: Handshift woes...

#4

Post by Bigincher » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:22 pm

Is the hand-shift lever for a Big Twin? The lever off a 45 has a shorter distance between the pivot bolt and the end of the lever. The distance on a Big Twin lever is 4", while on a 45 lever is just 3". Could explain why not enough 'throw' to engage all the gears properly.

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Re: Handshift woes...

#5

Post by wahoo » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:29 pm

Kuda,
The shifter drum is the same for most all 4 speeds, it will work. The problem with your gate is in the gate unless its OG, I have an aftermarket gate. I had to file the first gear slot to get both 1 and 4. I would rather it not engage 1st well than jump out of 4th, so I adjusted the lever to get 4th well. That lasted for a few hundred miles, then began not wanting to engage 1st, mostly due to losses from the pivot points. I could pull the rod and get it into gear everytime. I took the gate off, tuned it upside down and used a grinder to slot the 1st gear slot about .200 longer. I then filed from the top to square up the slot. It slips into 1st really quiet and well now. If you have an OG gate and still can not get 1 and 4, I would buy a repop gate and work on it while you lok for an OG jockey lid. I have 2, but the spare has a 3 speed with R drum in it.
And no its not for sale, sorry.
George

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Re: Handshift woes...

#6

Post by steinauge » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:22 pm

Your ratchet drum will work.I have seen 2 or 3 of these chinese jockey lids and have had the same problems with them. The ones I worked on were using jockey shifters so the gate\lever\linkage relationship problem wasnt there.I believe the problem is the drum cam slots and detent notches are so far out of tolerance they cant function.

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Re: Handshift woes...

#7

Post by RUBONE » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:38 pm

Kuda,
Did you also check the shifter fork spacing when switching tops? Especially with an aftermarket drum. And forget that nonsense about the shift levers, they are all the same 45 or big twin.
Robbie

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Re: Handshift woes...

#8

Post by Kuda » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:48 pm

wahoo wrote:Kuda,
The shifter drum is the same for most all 4 speeds, it will work. The problem with your gate is in the gate unless its OG, I have an aftermarket gate. I had to file the first gear slot to get both 1 and 4. I would rather it not engage 1st well than jump out of 4th, so I adjusted the lever to get 4th well. That lasted for a few hundred miles, then began not wanting to engage 1st, mostly due to losses from the pivot points. I could pull the rod and get it into gear everytime. I took the gate off, tuned it upside down and used a grinder to slot the 1st gear slot about .200 longer. I then filed from the top to square up the slot. It slips into 1st really quiet and well now. If you have an OG gate and still can not get 1 and 4, I would buy a repop gate and work on it while you lok for an OG jockey lid. I have 2, but the spare has a 3 speed with R drum in it.
And no its not for sale, sorry.
George
That sounds like a good option. I've got a repo gate too, so I'll try the slot method for more throw once I get the gears to shift a little easier. As much as it pains me, I'm resigned to pulling the whole bike apart again and pulling the trans. Something is just not right with that drum. So am I to understand that the big round cast shifter drums, the one with slots cut into the drum, are interchangeable with the later, smaller...uh...more sculpted ones? If so, I can pull the one out of the later ratchet drum I've got and try that one...

-Kuda
Last edited by Kuda on Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Handshift woes...

#9

Post by Kuda » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:51 pm

RUBONE wrote:Kuda,
Did you also check the shifter fork spacing when switching tops? Especially with an aftermarket drum. And forget that nonsense about the shift levers, they are all the same 45 or big twin.
Robbie
I'll measure the lever when I get home, just for grins. And yeah, I checked the shifter fork spacing, but I did it by eye, same way I always did it for ratchet lids. Never had a problem. But this time it was a real bitch to get lined up, but eventually I got it. I also had to clearance the drum quite a bit, when I tried to run a follower through the slots it wouldn't fit in about 60% of both slots. Damn cheap ass repop drum...

-Kuda

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Re: Handshift woes...

#10

Post by Bigincher » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:55 pm

RUBONE wrote:Kuda,
Did you also check the shifter fork spacing when switching tops? Especially with an aftermarket drum. And forget that nonsense about the shift levers, they are all the same 45 or big twin.
Robbie
Yup, total nonsense. Same part number, 33675-37. But I'll never understand why I ended up with one that measures 3" hole-to-hole. You have such a nice way with words, Ru-Bone.

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Re: Handshift woes...

#11

Post by PanPal » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:19 am

I'm trying to rework a V twin ratchet lid now so it works. The pins in the catch pawls are way off center. I've already replaced the cast drum wth an OEM HD drum. The bushing in the pawl holder is sloppy as hell. The spring pin for the drum doesn't slide right and the srpring is weak.
I happen to have a hand shift lid with a barrel and jockey shifter on it sitting on the bench next to it. What parts of the rachet lid do you have that can be salvaged? I think I really want to run a ratchet lid.

Funny thing is the guy I bought the bike from said the trans worked great until he put the chrome V-twin Ratchet lid on. With it on the bench out of the bike it works every time. Set the shift forks to the lid and either 2nd lunges, second time no forth, Now wouldn't go into 1st. so it's on the bench again and I think this lid sucks.

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Re: Handshift woes...

#12

Post by Kuda » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:11 am

PanPal wrote: I happen to have a hand shift lid with a barrel and jockey shifter on it sitting on the bench next to it. What parts of the rachet lid do you have that can be salvaged? I think I really want to run a ratchet lid.
The shifter pawl is toast, the pins were ripped out and all three screw holes were destroyed. Other than that, it's fine. But I was planning to keep it in case I can't get the hand shifter to work right...

-Kuda

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Re: Handshift woes...

#13

Post by mbskeam » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:19 am

had to file the slot in my AM shift gate also...

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Re: Handshift woes...

#14

Post by concrete guy » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:58 am

Kuda, are you looking for a jockey top?? If so I have an orignal I could send ya. I still have your number don't know if you have mine. 319 270 4971

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Re: Handshift woes...

#15

Post by panz4ever » Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:15 pm

Kuda, I used Old Dude for a replacement OEM drum for my 4 speed tank shift.

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