Tranny issue...need help with diagnosing

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biker_k
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Tranny issue...need help with diagnosing

#1

Post by biker_k » Mon May 10, 2010 5:56 pm

I just started getting a 1960 back on the road. Fresh motor rebuild, and a fresh tranny rebuild. I have an anomaly with the tranny that leaves me scratching my head. Here is what it does.
1. Every now and then with the bike in neutral the kicker will get stuck in gear. Moving the bike forward or backward will free the kicker up.
2. Once the bike is started, I observed the kicker pedal falling away to the ground and then snapping back up.....a few times.
3. When riding, and sitting at a red light, the clutch hub will cease turning with the clutch lever pulled in, but I can still feel the bike trying to creep forward as if the clutch is dragging, however, the hub is not spinning, so I don't believe it's the clutch.

I'm pretty sure that the issue is in the kicker, but I have no clue what it could be. Any ideas?

Curtis



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Re: Tranny issue...need help with diagnosing

#2

Post by steinauge » Tue May 11, 2010 7:55 pm

Maybe either a bad retaining plate on the big gear,a bad bushing in the ratchet gear,the main shaft ball bearing locknut is coming loose or the aftermarket parts blues.

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Re: Tranny issue...need help with diagnosing

#3

Post by biker_k » Thu May 13, 2010 3:01 am

I really appreciate your answer Stienauge. However, I'm kicker challenged. It's one part of the bike that I've never been into. I have no clue about the inner workings. I'm assuming that you are talking about parts in the kicker assy. by saying big gear and ratchet gear. I'm opting for the aftermarket blues as the tranny was just rebuilt by a friend who has built quite a few and knows the in's and out's of 4 speeds. He didn't really touch the kicker as the previous owner of the bike changed out the kicker assembly for the stroked motor that he had in it. I was lucky enough to get the stock kicker assembly with both gears, so I might go back to putting those in if I discover that the new kicker is not OEM. I am going to take the tranny out and pull the kicker assembly and take a good look. It really freaked me out when the bike was warming up and the kicker pedal engaged down like someone kicked it over......really freaky.

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Re: Tranny issue...need help with diagnosing

#4

Post by PanPal » Thu May 13, 2010 7:40 pm

You do not have to pull the tranny to get into the kicker gears. Just take the cover off with the kicker pedal still attached and see what it looks like first. More tan likely the kicker arm was the only part replaced for the strocker motor. It may just be slightly longer to allow more leverage when kicking it over. The gears you have should be the same as what you have in there now.

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Re: Tranny issue...need help with diagnosing

#5

Post by NightShift » Thu May 13, 2010 8:40 pm

Dear Curtis,
A lot of transmissions get rebuilt without putting in a new spring that pushes the kicker clutch gear out when the bike starts. It could be part of the problem maybe a lot of it.

Springs get tired just sitting for fifty years.

Hope this helps,

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Re: Tranny issue...need help with diagnosing

#6

Post by biker_k » Thu May 13, 2010 8:54 pm

Can anyone give me an opinion about what specifically could cause a kicker to catch a gear or act like the bike is in gear when the bike is clearly in neutral? Is this the ratchet gear possibly sticking because of the bushing? Would it account for the bike wanting to creep when sitting at a traffic light? I mean.....the bike wants to creep like a dragging clutch, however, the hand clutch lever is pulled in all the way, the clutch hub is not moving and completely disengaged, but the bike surges forward like it's dragging. I'm thinking that whatever is causing the kicker to grab a gear is doing the same thing at a light with the clutch disengaged. I've been told that there is NO WAY a bike can creep when the clutch is completely disengaged and not spinning, but that is exactly what this bike is doing.

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Re: Tranny issue...need help with diagnosing

#7

Post by NightShift » Thu May 13, 2010 9:12 pm

Dear Curtis,
Please see my last message. A tight bushing makes it worse. Clutch surging can come from other things on that side too but never does only one thing go wrong at a time.

Respectfully,

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Re: Tranny issue...need help with diagnosing

#8

Post by biker_k » Thu May 13, 2010 9:54 pm

I'm well aware of the creeping being related to more than one thing......however, with the clutch hub disengaged and not spinning, how can any power be transferred to the rear wheel? That is something that I don't understand. I'm running a 1.5 inch belt primary and chain secondary. I have a 4 speed ratchet-top tranny, 24 tooth sprocket and chain secondary. If the clutch hub is not spinning, I don't see anyway there could be creep. There is one more symptom that has me scratching my head. I have the mousetrap adjusted so that the spring tension on the hand clutch lever is pretty noticeable.....as much as my other panhead with a mousetrap eliminator. In lieu of that, here is the symptom. When the motor is hot....after about 15 miles, that is when the motor starts to creep. At the same time, the hand clutch lever gets really mushy.....as in, I pull the clutch lever in, but when I go to release, there is not enough spring tension to smoothly release the clutch. I have to push the lever out with my hand to engage the clutch. I've been adjusting clutches for quite some time, I've never had one react this way.....but it is my first mousetrap.

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Re: Tranny issue...need help with diagnosing

#9

Post by partshunt » Fri May 14, 2010 11:45 am

Biker_k; Its very possible you have more than one problem as mentioned by other listers here. Being a new transmission, its possbly that bushings are fitted too darn tight or dry and grabbing any rotating shafts in nuetral. That can couse a forward jerking motion even tho the clutch is disengaged. Also, the bushing on the kickstarter mainshaft gear bushing has to spin free on the now rotating mainshaft while the bike is moving. The starter gears are constant mesh but are stationary when the kicker is not used. For the kicker to make the odd stroke downward, that mainshaft gear has to rotate intermittently and being constant mesh with kicker crank gear, it also will move and cause the crank to stroke downward. Stupid question, how is the the oil level ? Any oil in that gear box? Any rotating gear trying to sieze on to the mainshaft will cause the machine to try and move forward as even the the clutch is disengaged, rememeber, one set of gears are always rotating any time the engine is running even in nuetral but the mainshaft stops when the bike stops. The input always rotates with the engine, the output side always stops when the bike stops so the clutch must berelease.d ...Joe

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Re: Tranny issue...need help with diagnosing

#10

Post by Cotten » Fri May 14, 2010 1:41 pm

A binding Main Drive Gear bushing upon the mainshaft can be one of the suspects, but only a total teardown (or breakdown) would bring it to light. This can be the result of an improperly fit MDG bushing, a tapered mainshaft from wear, or an older Andrews shaft that was never concentric in the first place. (I have encountered all of the above in separate instances.)

And as Joe mentioned, the kick clutch gear bushing must be very loose upon the shaft, perhaps as much as four or five thou! And somebody mentioned the spring which is critical to disengaging squarely and consistantly. If the pawl on the kicker gear has deep teeth marks from a worn kickercover bushing, it can foul disengagement as well, even with fresh cover bushings installed.

There may be a simpler problem, however,....
Curtis!
Sorry I must ask, but,
Your are not running a "supernut" with a 1960 clutch hub or MDGear, are you?

....Cotten

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Re: Tranny issue...need help with diagnosing

#11

Post by biker_k » Fri May 14, 2010 2:09 pm

Well.......now........er........ahhh..... What's a supernut? I've heard the term before, but have no idea what it is.

The tranny was completely tore down and rebuilt. When I started to put the final assembly on the bike, and took the 3" belt primary off to replace it with the 1.5 inch belt, I noticed the mainshaft was bent at the clutch side end where the hub nut screws on. The tranny was torn apart and there were some definite problems. The mainshaft was replace with a new Andrews shaft, the cluster was replaced, 4th gear was replaced, and all bushings, spacers, seals, keys, etc.

You guys are really awesome with your responses. I've decided that I'm going to take the tranny out, maybe put the tranny from my chopper in to continue on with the motor breakin. Then I'm going to get together with my friend who helped me rebuild the tranny and we'll pull it apart and commence with the inspection. It will be interesting to see what we find.

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Re: Tranny issue...need help with diagnosing

#12

Post by NightShift » Fri May 14, 2010 4:25 pm

Dear Curtis,
A supernut is a gimmick that only works when youve got a late drive gear and a late clutch hub and an open or tin primary but it sounds like you probably have all that anyway.
STUPDNUT.jpg
Hope you find the gremlin,
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

biker_k
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Re: Tranny issue...need help with diagnosing

#13

Post by biker_k » Fri May 14, 2010 5:05 pm

Cotton...... well, now I don't really know what the heck I have. Hell....I've slept since then. lol I really don't think that I have a supernut, because I replaced the nut and didn't order a supernut. Is the difference the "thickness" of the nut?

Nightshift.... I've got a tin primary, running a 1.5 inch belt, 5 finger clutch hub, and replace the drive gear with one that covered the appropriate year....at least I believe I ordered for the correct year. I'm sure that my friend who rebuilt the tranny would have identified the wrong year gear if I had ordered it.

One thing about asking questions......now I don't know what the heck I have, which means I'm really going to have to methodically approach this problem now. I'll start on the kicker side. I'll let ya'll know what I find this weekend.

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Re: Tranny issue...need help with diagnosing

#14

Post by NightShift » Fri May 14, 2010 6:31 pm

Dear Curtis,
The supernuts are thicker because they have a seal built into them. And any drive gear you order will be the late gear because they retro-fit just like late clutch hubs are all you can buy. And the late gears use a seal inside them. Supernuts were a quick fix for when that seal crapped out usually because the bushing got sloppy and the seal is real hard to cram in without knarfing it all up.

We are here for you,

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Re: Tranny issue...need help with diagnosing

#15

Post by partshunt » Fri May 14, 2010 8:05 pm

[quote="NightShift"]Dear Curtis,
A lot of transmissions get rebuilt without putting in a new spring that pushes the kicker clutch gear out when the bike starts. It could be part of the problem maybe a lot of it.

Springs get tired just sitting for fifty years.

Hope this helps,[/quote]

Just want to clarify a point regarding the starter clutch spring. Its job is to ENGAGE the mainshaft starter gear to the mainshaft clutch gear. Not release it. The crank gear has a pawl on it to release or Disengage the starter mainshaft clutch gear and is in cansatant mesh with the crank gear. The spring if weak enough to cause a problem will cause the kicker to skip and can even be a real knee snapper. Also, it can be easily checked as it should ratchet back very firmly and with quite a loud smart ratchet sound when the kicker is returning to rest position. You might even "feel" the ratchet working when the kicker returns to rest. If you have a feeble spring, and a weak ratcheting feel or poor engagement, then you have a broken or weak spring as it will efect engagement and good ratcheting. Hope I havent confused anyone.......Joe

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