1950 tranny problem

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doc308
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1950 tranny problem

#1

Post by doc308 » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:36 am

I had my 1950, 4-speed tranny rebuilt and just reistalled it in the bike. When I tried to start up the bike, the kicker locks up and spins the rear wheel, as though it's in gear. However, it's in neutral. As such, I can't start the bike. I suspect that somthing is wrong on the starter end of the tranny, such as the starter clutch/spring , etc. I don't know much about how this works. Can anyone enlighten me as to what might be going on here?

Since the tranny is under warranty, I'll have to bring it back to the shop that rebuilt it. I hesitate, however, because this will be the third time I've had to return the tranny to them since the rebuild due to one problem or another. Anyway, any ideas about what might be happening here would be appreciated.



Bosheff
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Re: 1950 tranny problem

#2

Post by Bosheff » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:18 am

Are you absolutely sure the tranny is in nuetral? If the rear wheel spins when trying to start, the motorcycle has got to be in gear. Has the tranny got a ratchet top, or a hand jammer lid. If it's a jammer then maybe nuetral on the shift gate is not really nuetral on the tranny. Check to see. Adjust if necessary. Put the rear wheel in the air and spin the wheel while shifting the tranny till you find nuetral. It's got to be there somewhere. As for the kicker locking up, there has got to be a problem in the kicker cover, or related parts. You say you have had the tranny back three times to the rebuilder. Find another rebuilder to recheck the original hacks work. I can understand a tranny going back maybe one time, but not three times. It is my opinion from what you have said that you have two non related issues....bosheff

Hog54
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Re: 1950 tranny problem

#3

Post by Hog54 » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:03 am

The only way the gears could be engaged while in neutral is the forks are on wrong somehow.Harley transmissions are pretty simple.I dont know how they could screwup 3 times. :roll:

doc308
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Re: 1950 tranny problem

#4

Post by doc308 » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:42 pm

The irony here is that the bike is in neutral. It seems that the kicker engages a gear. But when not kicking, the rear wheel does spin freely.

Bosheff
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Re: 1950 tranny problem

#5

Post by Bosheff » Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:45 pm

If what you say is true, that leads me to believe the mainshaft is not secured properly or maybe the 3rd gear retaing ring may not be in its groove. Just a guess. Mixer needs to be opened up for a look see....bosheff

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Re: 1950 tranny problem

#6

Post by Robert Luland » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:16 pm

Shifter Fork, Fork, Fork!

doc308
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Re: 1950 tranny problem

#7

Post by doc308 » Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:47 pm

Update---I brought the tranny back again. This time, the mechanic removed the ratchet top and kicker cover , cleaned everything out and inspected everything. He found nothing wrong, but indicated that maybe there was a burr or something on one of the new gears or something which caused the problem. After bench testing several times he found everything to be in good working order. I reinstalled the tranny today , started her up and put a few miles down. The shifting was fine. HOWEVER......

When engaging the clutch in gear while the bike is not running, I cannot kick the kicker through without it engaging the rear wheel-- i.e., it acts as though I'm trying to kick it over in gear without engaging the clutch. Or, it acts like the clutch is not adjusted tightly enough and is grabbing badly. However, the clutch is adjusted perfectly, by the book, and functions perfectly when the bike is running.

If you recall from my original statement of the problem, the kicker used to engage the rear wheel when kicking, even when in neutral. That's fixed--now, it engages the rear wheel when holding in the clutch ( when not running) while in gear.

Help please! I'm not going back to this shop again. This is the third time I've had to remove the tranny after the total rebuild. In the meantime, does anyone know of a reputable shop in the Upsate NY ( Albany) area who can repair this tranny?

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Re: 1950 tranny problem

#8

Post by Robert Luland » Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:28 pm

Doc, Did you rebuild the clutch at the same time the tranny was being done? How many clutch plates you got in the basket? Bob L

doc308
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Re: 1950 tranny problem

#9

Post by doc308 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:35 am

The clutch is the same one that's been in the bike all along. All of the plates are there and the linings are real good ( Barnett bonded ones). I've installed/ adjusted the clutch and primary drive myself many times and all is adjusted perfectly there. The irony here is that everything works perfectly once the bike is running. Specifically, the clutch engages when the lever is about half-way released and it holds the bike still in gear when fully disengaged--ie with the lever pulled all the way in. It also shifts well. Given what I've been through since this tranny rebuild, I truly don't think that this is a clutch problem--although symptomatically it seems like it.

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Re: 1950 tranny problem

#10

Post by Hog54 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:36 pm

Are you sure the clutch pushrod isnt worn?Ive seen them worn on the end from overtightening and they look normal but are like an 1/8th inch shorter and that would make it not work right when not running.

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Re: 1950 tranny problem

#11

Post by doc308 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:09 pm

That's interesting--but whywould it work fine when running, but not when not running ?

Replacing the pushrod ( which is the original 1950 item) would be easy enough, but it was working fine ,when not running, before this last trip to the shop. It seems that every time I return this tranny to get sorted out, it gets returned with somehing else malfunctioning. Orginally, the kicker was engaging the rear wheel when the tranny was in neutral--but wouldn't do it when pulling in the clutch. Now, it doesn't engage the rear wheel in neutral ( as it shouldn't) , but it does with the clutch pulled in !?!?

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Re: 1950 tranny problem

#12

Post by john HD » Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:23 pm

doc,

i'm thinking bent clutch pushrod. it is fine until it is forced into the mainshaft???

it the rear wheel really turning or is it "windmilling" due to the tighter clearences in your rebuilt tranny?

john

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Re: 1950 tranny problem

#13

Post by Hog54 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:57 am

doc308 wrote:That's interesting--but whywould it work fine when running, but not when not running ?

Replacing the pushrod ( which is the original 1950 item) would be easy enough, but it was working fine ,when not running, before this last trip to the shop. It seems that every time I return this tranny to get sorted out, it gets returned with somehing else malfunctioning. Orginally, the kicker was engaging the rear wheel when the tranny was in neutral--but wouldn't do it when pulling in the clutch. Now, it doesn't engage the rear wheel in neutral ( as it shouldn't) , but it does with the clutch pulled in !?!?

You got to find another tranny guy.I rebuilt mine on my kitchen table 15 years ago and havent had a problem since. 8)

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Re: 1950 tranny problem

#14

Post by steve_wood » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:45 pm

Doc;

Is it possible that the steel clutch plates have become warped or dished? This would cause the clutch to not disengage completely which would result in the rear wheel turning when the transmission is in gear when you kick it over with the clutch hand lever pulled in.

It may be that the clutch is on the hairy edge where it *seems* to shift fine when the engine is running, but not when it isn't.

As I recall, a really good rider can work the rpm's so that the power train shifts properly without any clutch at all... but I could be wrong. It happens. A lot.

Just a thought....

doc308
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Re: 1950 tranny problem

#15

Post by doc308 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:08 pm

I'm not sure what you mean by "windmilling", but, when not running, the rear wheel turns just like it would in first gear, even though the clutch is fully disengaged--ie the the lever pulled all the way in.

Re: the pushrod issue--it isn't bent and slides in and out as it should. I'm still curious about the statement that a worn pushrod would work while the bike is running but not when it's not??? I'm not a professional mechanic, but it would seem that it should work or not regardless of whether te engine is running or not(?)

Re: clutch adjustments, the end of the clutch arm is set at 4.25" from the edge of the ratchet drum and the clutch springs are set at slightly under 1" ( 7/8"--15/16") at the pressure plate. Re:when running, the clutch engages when the hand lever is about 1/2 way released and there is no grabbing or slipping at all. But, when the bike is not running the clutch totaly grabs when kicking while in gear !?!?

This really has me baffled. If there were the whole problem I could just forget it because everything works perfectly when the bike is running. However, I'm left with some apprehension wondering ifthere is something wrong inside which could get worse at some point.

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