Linkert/Schebler connection

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awander
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Linkert/Schebler connection

#1

Post by awander » Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:38 pm

WHy do so many of the parts interchange between these 2 different manufacturer's carburetors? I had always assumed that one of them absorbed the other, but that appears not to be the case.

Anybody know what, if any, connection there wa?



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Re: Linkert/Schebler connection

#2

Post by Cotten » Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:01 am

The general conjecture and hearsay is that the two factorys were ~eight city blocks apart. No doubt they would both subcontract from the same local suppliers.

Other hearsay is that L&L bought Schebler's motorcycle market interests (presumeably around the WW2 era).

Beware that there are many subtle differences in many of the parts considered to be interchangeable. Graciously, most do not affect their function.

...Cotten

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Re: Linkert/Schebler connection

#3

Post by awander » Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:39 am

Thanks, Cotten.

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Re: Linkert/Schebler connection

#4

Post by FlatHeadSix » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:17 am

I have tried to research that myself and have come to the same conclusions. L&L bought the motorcycle applications from Schebler but it was much earlier than WWII, more like 1931 or 1932 in the early years of the Great Depression, and it may have only applied to the Schebler DeLuxe models. The last Scheblers that were installed on Harleys were during those years but they had pot metal body castings, they didn't last long and were not easy to repair.

George Schebler is considered the "father" of the modern carburetor, but he was long gone from the Wheeler-Schebler company by the time that all happened. It was Marvel-Schebler by then and had become part of BorgWarner. Best guess is that the depression forced the change, lots of companies were struggling to survive and going through a lot of changes.

Cotten, was I supposed to send you some parts for the Schebler I left with you in Davenport?, let me know if I need to find anything for it and I'll get it up to you.

mike

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Re: Linkert/Schebler connection

#5

Post by Cotten » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:10 am

Mike!

Scheblers continued to be Indian's choice until the '41 production year, although government war contracts probably took precedence late in '40.

The '40 series are considered to be the last Schebler motorcycle carbs.
I would love to hear of exceptions!

My avatar is a DLX130 of that year.

....Cotten
PS: Your carb has been sitting in pieces waiting for you to rattle my cage. My fault, not yours!

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Re: Linkert/Schebler connection

#6

Post by awander » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:52 am

I've been searching for historical info on the link between Schebler and Linkert, and i think I've finally found it, in a newspaper article from 1931.

I also included below a bunch of other info I dug up in my search.

I have been unable to find any mention of a fire, or any other reason why L & L Mfg seems to have ceased production in the mid-60's. The last ads I found in the newspapers from the company were in 1957.
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Image

Brass Works and New Carburetor Company Give Jobs to 50 Men Here

Langsenkamp-Linkert Firm Takes Over Old Wheeler-Schebler Building – Former Employees Comprise Force.


Approximately 50 men have been put to work by the recently organized Langsenkamp-Linkert Carburetor Company and the Langsenkamp-Wheeler Brass Works, which manufactures many of the parts that are assembled in the carburetors.

Both companies, which are closely interrelated, are located in the 1200 block on Shelby street.

The carburetor company, which was organized in August, started production several days ago, and is prepared to assemble about seven hundred carburetors daily.

Officials and employees f the new company are largely former employees of the Wheeler-Schebler Carburetor Company, which was merged with the Marvel Carburetor Company of Flint, Mich,. Some time ago, and the new business was started in the same building that the Wheeler-Schebler Company used when it entered business.

Officers Named.

The Langsenkamp-Linkert company will manufacture carburetors for automobiles, commercial motors, marine engine and motor cycles.

Officers of the compaby are H. W. Linkert, president; Henry J. Langsenkamp Sr., president of the Langsenkamp-Wheeler Brass Works, treasurer; S. R. Hawkins, vide president in charge of sales, and Henry J. Langsenkamp Jr., secretary.

Mr. Linkert formerly was chief engineer for the Wheeler-Schebler company, and Mr. Hawkins was replacement sales and service manager for the same company.

Maldwyn Jones, who was motor cycle carburetor engineer for the Wheeler-Schebler Company many years, also has joined the new company.

Package” Outfits Made.

In addition to the carburetors manufactured for assembly in new automobiles and motor cycles by the factories, it builds what are known as “package” outfits. One package includes the carburetor and all equipment necessary for any automobile mechanic to assemble it to a car.

All its products are made entirely of brass, which is expensive, but resists corrosion. The replacement carburetors will be quite different from anything now in use, and each will include a dual control for starting and warming up motors and vacuum control for power and speed.

Tom Connell, Inc., 508 North Capitol avenue, has been appointed Indianapolis dealer for the company. The carburetor line will include those for all the better known automobiles and motor cycles.

from the Indianapolis Sunday Star, November 1, 1931.
______________________________________________________
Marvel-Schebler History
Early Company History

Alexander Graham Bell said of invention, “Good discoveries and improvements invariably involve the cooperation of many minds. I may be given credit for having blazed the trail but when I look at the subsequent development I feel credit is due to others rather than me.” Anyone who has ever been credited with inventing something is likely to agree with this insight and when it comes to the development and manufacturing of the airplane carburetor, it is still true today.
George Schebler of Batesville, Indiana was a farmer, a fiddle maker at a music store and was known by family and neighbors for being a bit of a mechanic as well. The carburetor came about because of his desire to have better control over the combustible engine. Working with his friend, Burt Pierce, the men used their understanding of mechanics, and began to tinker. Schebler ultimately designed a “carburetor” using a tin can with a simple flap that he attached to a motorcycle engine. Then in 1902, he patented the first air-valve designed carburetor. In order to perfect his product, however, Schebler needed some financial backing. Meanwhile, Pierce continued to work on what became known as the Marvel design and received a patent in 1909.
Eventually, Schebler drew the attention of people like Harry Stutz, known for the designing and manufacturing of internal combustion engine and Frank Wheeler. These men provided the money and marketing, while Schebler provided the mental knowledge and the IMS (Indianapolis Motor Speedway) Company was born. It is interesting to note, that the carburetor Schebler had invented was originally used with great success in racing cars and from 1911 to 1935, racing trophies carried the Wheeler name. In fact, as a testament to the role played by Frank Wheeler and George Schebler, the original Wheeler-Schebler building still survives and has been renamed the Wheeler Arts Community and can be found in the southern Indianapolis area. Other areas the Wheeler-Schebler carburetors began being used were in boats, agricultural equipment such as the Model D and Waterloo Boys tractors and ultimately in aircraft.
However, in 1912, Schebler sold his shares in the company. This was the first of many times that the Schebler company and its carburetors would change hands. In fact, over the past century, the Schebler Company has been known by many names, but one thing remains the same- being known for their quality carburetors. Here is a basic overview of the Marvel-Schebler® history:
Marvel Schebler History Timeline
• In 1905 the Wheeler-Schebler company was formed.
• In 1908 the Marvel Carburetor Company was formed and J. R. Francis backed Pierce’s design. This design was used heavily by General Motors, also formed in 1908
• Additional Wheeler-Schebler production facilities were built in 1911
• Schebler sold his stake in the company and the Marvel company moved to Flint, MI in 1912.
• By 1928 the company was known as the Marvel-Schebler Carburetor Co. and one of the founding companies of the Borg Warner Corporation eventually becoming the Marvel-Schebler®/Tillotson Division. It was comprised of 4 companies. In addition, the Marvel-Schebler Company was producing 6,000 carburetors a day! Pierce soon after sold his stake in Marvel, became a consultant. In addition to his other accomplishments he developed Marvel Mystery Oil.
• Borg-Warner designated the Marvel-Schebler Division in 1934.
• Marvel-Schebler moved to Decatur, Illinois in 1948 and opened a new plant in 1950
• Facet Aerospace Products Co. purchased the company from Borg Warner in 1982, in April of 1983 the Decatur plant closed.
• Facet sold the Marvel-Schebler® product line to Zenith Fuel systems in 1990.
• Precision Airmotive Corporation bought the aviation carburetor line from Zeinth in 1990.
• In March of 2008 Volare, bought the MSA carburetor line assets from Precision Airmotive LLC.
• March 2008, MSA carburetors and OEM replacement parts began being marketed under the TEMPEST® Plus Marketing Group.
• In August of 2010, Volare Carburetors LLC acquired the Marvel-Schebler® trademark.
• In 2010, TEMPEST announced that the manufacturer formerly known as Volare Carburetors LLC is now Marvel-Schebler Aircraft Carburetors LLC; marketing efforts to remain under the TEMPEST brand.
• Effective March 1, 2011 Marvel-Schebler Aircraft Carburetors LLC began marketing its Marvel-Schebler® OEM line of carburetors and replacement parts.

From:

http://msacarbs.com/company/marvel-sche ... story.html
___________________________________________________________
The Wheeler—Schebler Carburetor Company was one of the city’s most important auto parts makers of the early 20th century. From 1911-1951, workers in this factory produced carburetors for over 15 makes of autos nationally. Frank Wheeler and George Schebler formed a partnership to manufacture George’s carburetor, patented in 1902. Wheeler was the financial expert, while Schebler had the engineering skills. The two business partners sponsored the Wheeler—Schebler Trophy, a Tiffany-designed silver urn for Indy 500 winners and a precursor to the present Borg-Warner Trophy.

From:

https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/indianapo ... hebler.htm
_________________________________________________________________________

In 1904, Harry C. Stutz, who was involved in the design and manufacture of internal combustion engines, introduced George Schebler to Frank W. Wheeler. In the resulting partnership, Wheeler provided the money, while Schebler provided the engineering skills. Stutz worked temporarily as Sales Manager. By 1907, they had achieved enough success to move to Indianapolis into a state-of-the-art building, a plant that reportedly was one of the most advanced manufacturing facilities in the United States at the time. The factory produced carburetors for over 15 makes of autos from 1911 up to 1951.
Frank Wheeler and three other local men opened the Indianapolis Motor Speedway in 1909. Prior to the inauguration of the Indianapolis 500 in 1911, the Wheeler-Schebler company sponsored the Wheeler-Schebler Trophy Race at the track. George Schebler sold his interests in the company in 1912, but it continued to operate under the Wheeler-Schebler name until 1928, when it evolved into the Marvel-Schebler Carburetor Company, one of five companies that played a role in the development of what that would become the Borg-Warner Corporation.
The Marvel-Schebler company did some of the early work connected with developing fuel-injection systems in the late 1950s and early 60s, eventually merging with the Tillotson Carburetor Company in 1971. In 1985, the name was revised to "Control Systems" by the parent company, Borg-Warner. When Borg-Warner went through a leveraged buyout in 1987, Borg Warner Automotive Inc. was spun off as an independent company that is still in operation, developing fuel efficient engine and drive train technology. To this day, the trophy awarded annually to the winner of the Indianapolis 500 is known as the Borg-Warner Trophy.
The original Wheeler-Schebler building still survives; it has been renamed the "Wheeler Arts Community" and the "Community Arts and Education Center" which is located in the Fountain Square district of Indianapolis at 1035 East Sanders Street.[4] The art center is a joint venture between the University of Indianapolis and the Southeast Neighborhood Development (SEND).

From:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%E ... or_Company
________________________________________________________________________________________

Today is the story of George Schebler. Now that might not mean anything to you, but it will in a minute. George Schebler was born in 1865 down in Hamburg, Indiana. He went as far in school as his school provided which was 4th grade; just like my dad. That was the end of school. As long as you could read, write, add, subtract, multiply, divide you didn’t need to know anything else. That was it.
George then worked at a farm for a number of years, then decided to become a carpenter. He started building guitars and violins in Indianapolis.
At about that time, the end of that century, the 1890’s, gasoline engines begin to get kind of popular. Stationary and even some cars. The big problem with the engine was they had no accurate way of mixing the fuel and the air. The problem was, as the tank would get lower or the fuel would get lower, the pressure would get less, they’d have to adjust the carburetor, which was really a mixing valve. And when it went to automobiles, they go up the hill, they had to get more fuel. When they went downhill, they had to back off. George said, “If there was some way we could just keep the level of the gas the same in the carburetor we’d be all set.”
He thought back to his days back on the farm when he was responsible for feeding the hogs and the hog trough. The farmer he worked for had a device. They had a cistern of water, a big tank, and hogs take a whole bunch of liquid. For the hog trough, instead of having to go fill it up all the time, the farmer had devised an arm with a barrel on the end in the hog trough. At the other end was a valve. As the hogs would drink the water, the float would go down. That would let more water in the hog trough until it would fill up and it would shut the water off. George says, “Hey, how about if I put that in the carburetor?” George Schebler invented the first float in a carburetor.
It was a good idea. He showed it to Stutz. Stutz thought it was a terrific idea. He put it in his car. It worked great. He said, “There’s a guy over here in Indianapolis by the name of Frank Wheeler that is putting some ideas together. They are going to build something called the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. He’s kind of car oriented. Why don’t you talk to him about this great device you’ve got?”
So George went to Frank Wheeler. Frank was impressed, spent twenty-five hundred dollars on advertising this revolutionary carburetor. That was in 1902, George Schebler got a patent on his float for the carburetor. In 1904 he joined with Wheeler to form the Wheeler-Schebler carburetor company.
In 1909, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway opened up. The trophy awarded to the winning driver was called the Wheeler-Schebler trophy. For those that don’t know it, that was the start. From there until 1936 the Wheeler-Schebler trophy was awarded to the winner of the Indianapolis 500.
In 1912, Schebler wanted to go back to the farm. He, like so many inventors, was not a business guy. So, he went to Wheeler and Wheeler bought his interest out in the Wheeler-Schebler carburetor for $1 million. A little different than the Louis Chevrolet story. He sold it for a million bucks, went and bought a farm. He turned a desolate piece of Indiana into a thriving business and did very well.
Wheeler went on buying little companies and forming it up. That Wheeler-Schebler carburetor trophy went on until 1936, at which time it became, and still is, the Borg-Warner trophy. Wheelers’ little company of forming little pieces eventually became Borg-Warner.
So, George Schebler, parted with Wheeler carburetor and Wheeler went on to Borg-Warner. For all of you that have carburetors, essentially every carburetor in the world has a float, and that was from George Schebler from a hog trough in Southern Indiana.

From:

http://www.lotuscorps.org/wp/2016/11/11 ... arburetor/
_______________________________________________________________________

Originally known as the Wheeler-Schebler carburetor company, it became Marvel-Schebler Carburetor Company when it merged with Marvel Carburetor Company. The Marvel-Schebler company did some early work connected with developing fuel-injection systems in the late 1950s and early 60s, eventually merging with the Borg Warner owned Tillotson Carburetor Company in 1971. In 1985, parent company Borg Warner changed the division name to "Control Systems." Borg-Warner went through a leveraged buyout in 1987, spinning off the Borg Warner Automotive Inc., as an independent company that is still in operation, developing fuel-efficient engine and drive train technology. Marvel-Schebler/Tillotson spun away from Borg-Warner to become Facet Aerospace Products Company, which first became Precision Airmotive Corporation, then Volare Carburetors LLC, then Marvel-Schebler® Aircraft Carburetors (MSA). MSA produces these carburetors under Aero Accessories, Inc’s (Aero) FAA - PMA authorization. Marvel-Schebler® produces models: MA-3A™, MA-3PA™, MA-3SPA™, MA-4SPA™, MA-4-5™, MA-4-5AA™, MA-6AA™, and HA-6™. Continental, Lycoming and Franklin four- and six-cylinder horizontally-opposed aircraft engines use these carburetors.

From:

http://www.enginehistory.org/Accessorie ... Hx05.shtml
_______________________________________________________________________

Metal Record and Electroplater, Volume 4, Issue 10. P855 Article on Langsenkamp & Wheeler Brass Works

https://books.google.com/books?id=4LLmA ... le&f=false
_________________________________________________________________________

Langsenkamp - Linkert (L&L) Co.
The famous Indianapolis Indiana carburetors manufacturing company Langsenkamp-Linkert (L&L) began cooperation with Harley-Davidson around 1930 with the M31 M16 models replacing the Schebler carburetors of the 20's, The company name and casting / diameter can be found on the sides of its main body, the model type was stamped into a flat area on the front top of the body, as we count the Knucklehead 80' years its good time to present its first carburetor - The famous Linkert M5 , recognize by its two screws Air Filter flange and nickel platet body, The M5 will change into the more familiar 4 screws Air Cleaner flange around 1937, the early M5 still carry the complete name of the company and have a 3 screws manifold flange, those will change around 1940 into the 4 screws manifold flange and the company name will change to the shorter L&L form, ...

From

http://www.3d-files.co.il/Langsenkamp_Linkert_Co.html

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Re: Linkert/Schebler connection

#7

Post by Andygears » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:16 am

Wow, great stuff! Thanks a lot for posting.

Andygears

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Re: Linkert/Schebler connection

#8

Post by George Greer » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:05 pm

I second the above .....

George

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Re: Linkert/Schebler connection

#9

Post by Buddhahoodvatoloco » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:01 am

Good read, interesting. Thanks for the post.

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