Banging my head and it ain't to Lynrd!

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pannick
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:52 am
Location: S. California

Banging my head and it ain't to Lynrd!

#1

Post by pannick » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:05 pm

Hello all, new to this forum and just finished reading a few hours worth of Q & A's. Impressive website! You all seem like a good bunch of wrenches here.

Anyways, here's my quick story. I bought a rolling chassis when I was 18. After doing 6 years in the Marines and 8 years overseas as a Gov't Contractor, I finally settled down, got time and $$$ to rebuild my old suicide flame [1960 Duo Glide]. I decided to rebuild everything from the floor up and turned the powerplant over to a well reputable engine rebuilder who magnificently reworked the internals. Midway through the rebuild, I decided to install a new S&S HV/HP oil pump, replace the heads with new STD heads, install an Andrews "b" grind cam, remove the primary chain and install a 1.5" Primo primary belt drive, and junk the point distributor with a Unilite Mallory electronic ignition for easier kick starting capability [My knees are shot].

Did I say "short story?"

Anyways, current problem I am having is that I adjusted the primary chain oiler clockwise all the way to stop oil flow to the primary chain oiler. And with the engine running, it seems that oil begins to flow out of the Mallory distributor vent hole. While inspecting the source of the oil leak [with the engine turned off], I accidentally reseated the distributor several times and had to reset the timing. After readjusting the timing, I kicked over the bike about 80-100 times. The bike coughs over but does not start. I've tried retarding and advancing the distributor, but the bike either coughs, kicks back at me or sits there like a dummy watching me kick it over and over for 45 minutes! The bike has already taken some good licks at my right knee and left shin, leaving bruises and swollen joints. And after a good sweat in 38 degree weather, some good ol' American cussin' and a long throw of my "missing" wrench, I simply walked away and put my legs and pride on ice.

My question to you is:
A] Why the hell ain't the timing right? I'm on cylinder #1 power stroke, TDC w/ timing mark [line] centered in timing insection hole, and 2 arrows on the distributor aligned?

B] After turning the primary chain oiler closed on the S&S oil pump, why is the oil finding its way up and into the electronic distributor? [Not a lot, just a drip about every 5-8 seconds; and it's not filling the distibutor, it's just weeping out.]

I love having this Panhead. I am a firm believer in being your own mechanic and that no one else will ever take care of your ride like yourself! I hate not being able to ride my scoot and I didn't begin this project with the mind set that this bike would sit in the garage! Please help!
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57pan
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#2

Post by 57pan » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:58 pm

Well, I'll just throw some things out and see if they stick...

Do you have the new style Mallory that has the programmable switches in it or the old style with no switches. I have the older style so that is all I am familiar with. Mine only has one arrow on the "rotor" that has to be lined up with one of the screw holes that secure the cover in place. But you have to make sure you manually advance the "rotor" when you line up the arrow.

I had my cam chest open and when I put it all back together I was SURE I had everything back together correctly but it behaved much as you described. I knew something was wrong because it always started so easily before I had it apart. Sure enough, I had the timing unit in 180 deg. off.

Also, just turn it over slowly while watching thru the timing plug hole to make sure there is only one mark on the flywheel.

I have no idea about the oil weeping out of the ign. unit. Doesn't seem like it should be related to turning off the chain oiler.

pannick
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:52 am
Location: S. California

#3

Post by pannick » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:00 pm

57pan,
The Mallory is the old style [?] without any switches.

What do you mean when you say, "But you have to make sure you manually advance the "rotor" when you line up the arrow."?

Pannick

57pan wrote:Well, I'll just throw some things out and see if they stick...

Do you have the new style Mallory that has the programmable switches in it or the old style with no switches. I have the older style so that is all I am familiar with. Mine only has one arrow on the "rotor" that has to be lined up with one of the screw holes that secure the cover in place. But you have to make sure you manually advance the "rotor" when you line up the arrow.

I had my cam chest open and when I put it all back together I was SURE I had everything back together correctly but it behaved much as you described. I knew something was wrong because it always started so easily before I had it apart. Sure enough, I had the timing unit in 180 deg. off.

Also, just turn it over slowly while watching thru the timing plug hole to make sure there is only one mark on the flywheel.

I have no idea about the oil weeping out of the ign. unit. Doesn't seem like it should be related to turning off the chain oiler.

fourthgear
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#4

Post by fourthgear » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:37 pm

Are you getting oil return back to your oil tank and how much ? Are you sure your breather in the gear case is timed properly . You should not be getting oil out of your distributor (timer , circuit breaker , what ever you want to call it ) sounds like your oil is backing up in the gear case . Was the instructions followed from S&S for installation, some years require altering the motor case ( a special fixture is used to drill and set up oiling passages) A high velocity oil pump for a Panhead motor , is that something new ?

Below are the instructions for the Mallory.

http://www.hydra-glide.com/coppermine/d ... ?pos=-1477

http://www.hydra-glide.com/coppermine/d ... ?pos=-1476

Cotten
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#5

Post by Cotten » Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:53 am

Did you keep the good parts, or did the rebuilder relieve you of them?

....Cotten

pannick
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:52 am
Location: S. California

#6

Post by pannick » Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:41 am

Cotten wrote:Did you keep the good parts, or did the rebuilder relieve you of them?

....Cotten
Nah, the rebuilder gave me all original parts that came off of the engine. I made sure that I had it all in case I needed to look/ go back to square one!

pannick
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:52 am
Location: S. California

#7

Post by pannick » Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:52 am

fourthgear wrote:Are you getting oil return back to your oil tank and how much ? Are you sure your breather in the gear case is timed properly . You should not be getting oil out of your distributor (timer , circuit breaker , what ever you want to call it ) sounds like your oil is backing up in the gear case . Was the instructions followed from S&S for installation, some years require altering the motor case ( a special fixture is used to drill and set up oiling passages) A high velocity oil pump for a Panhead motor , is that something new ?
Fourthgear,
Thanks for the link. I had these instructions from the Mallory box and filed them incase I needed them. I have read and re-read these instructions several times. Maybe I'm an idiot, but I believe I am following the instructions as directed!?! And prior to me messing with the distributor, it was a 2 kicker! Damn my luck!

I've inspected all routing of the oil lines, and timing of the gears to include the breather gear. I could not verify the oil return. I was going to do that next, but I opened up the timing cover to inspect the gears and f'ed up the timing meanwhile. But since its last few short starts and momentary engine runs, I have not seen a drop in oil quantity, just leaks at the distributor and then I shut it down. All in all, there's probably 15 minutes of engine run time on this motor.

Guest

#8

Post by Guest » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:16 am

The Mallory instructions should have explained the part about manually advancing the rotor when setting the timing. All "auto-advance" timers are at full retard when at rest, they don't begin to advance until the rpm increases. The timing mark on the flywheel appears in the window before the piston reaches top dead center, indicating the "advanced" position.

There are several devices on the market which will hold the timer shaft and rotor of an auto-advance unit in the full advance position which is where it should be when you do the initial static timing of the unit.

grab the rotor and try to turn it. After turning it as far as it will freely move it should "spring" back to its original position when you release it. The limit of its movement when fully turned against the spring pressure is the full advance position, set your timing here.

good luck!

mike

pannick
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:52 am
Location: S. California

#9

Post by pannick » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:24 am

Mike, maybe that's where I'm screwing it up! You see, what I'm doing is setting up the forward piston to TDC by placing my finger in the S.P. hole and waiting for compression, then inching the flywheel till it lines up centered in the inspection hole. At this point, I then align the 2 arrows on the distributor and manually check the "spring back" of the distributor advance. I then place the cover back on the distributor, tighten the 3 screws and tighten the distributor lock tab and try kicking it over. Can you tell me where I'm messing this up?
Anonymous wrote:The Mallory instructions should have explained the part about manually advancing the rotor when setting the timing. All "auto-advance" timers are at full retard when at rest, they don't begin to advance until the rpm increases. The timing mark on the flywheel appears in the window before the piston reaches top dead center, indicating the "advanced" position.

There are several devices on the market which will hold the timer shaft and rotor of an auto-advance unit in the full advance position which is where it should be when you do the initial static timing of the unit.

grab the rotor and try to turn it. After turning it as far as it will freely move it should "spring" back to its original position when you release it. The limit of its movement when fully turned against the spring pressure is the full advance position, set your timing here.

good luck!

mike

FlatHeadSix
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#10

Post by FlatHeadSix » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:26 am

that's the second time tonight that I got "guested"

I was going to mention that my first experience with auto-advance timers was on a late model servicar flathead. Having no previous experience with auto-advance units I static timed it without manually advancing the timer shaft and it behaved the same way. Once I read the book (real men don't read instructions) and timed it while holding the rotor in full advance it started and ran just like it should. Imagine that!

mike

pannick
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:52 am
Location: S. California

#11

Post by pannick » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:57 am

FlatHeadSix wrote:that's the second time tonight that I got "guested"

I was going to mention that my first experience with auto-advance timers was on a late model servicar flathead. Having no previous experience with auto-advance units I static timed it without manually advancing the timer shaft and it behaved the same way. Once I read the book (real men don't read instructions) and timed it while holding the rotor in full advance it started and ran just like it should. Imagine that!

mike
Yeah, seems like that is where I am dumbing up at! Also, went and re-read the instructions and saw that I was completely missing Step 5. And although I read it several times, I misunderstood the instructions and simply let it snap back, that's all. Well, give me a day to touch it again. I have a newborn and the ol' land to attend to, which will take up most of my night, but I'll post the results tomorrow. Good watching out Flatheadsix!

Pannick

kevsett
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#12

Post by kevsett » Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:16 pm

Would you tell who your well reputable engine rebuilder is?

pannick
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Location: S. California

#13

Post by pannick » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:46 pm

Kevsett,
The builder of my 1960 Panhead is Bob Howard [Howard & Sons 760-868-3582] located in Phelan, California.

Honestly, I never met any other person who produces such top quality and excellent workmanship. Although he works meticulously at his own pace, he's a good wrench and a machinist who has everything in his workshop directly next door to his main office. No 2nd hand people working on your bike waiting for their "I don't give a damn attitudes" to wear off. Nah man, this guy is kind and honest, something that's lacking in today's society!

Give him a call and tell him that Nick suggested him to you. He's a really great guy!

[/img]

pannick
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:52 am
Location: S. California

#14

Post by pannick » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:14 pm

panhead wrote:Pannick, try logging in
Ok that worked, thanks Panhead!

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:46 pm Post subject:

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Kevsett,
The builder of my 1960 Panhead is Bob Howard [Howard & Sons 760-868-3582] located in Phelan, California.

Honestly, I never met any other person who produces such top quality and excellent workmanship. Although he works meticulously at his own pace, he's a good wrench and a machinist who has everything in his workshop directly next door to his main office. No 2nd hand people working on your bike waiting for their "I don't give a damn attitudes" to wear off. Nah man, this guy is kind and honest, something that's lacking in today's society!

Give him a call and tell him that Nick suggested him to you. He's a really great guy!

-Nick
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pannick
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:52 am
Location: S. California

#15

Post by pannick » Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:54 am

Flatheadsix,
Well, I didn't have time to mess with the bike yet, but I will here in about 2 hours. I got several questions though.

In the Mallory instructions it tells ya to find the compression stroke and rotate the motor over till ya see the timing mark in the inspection hole.
Q1] When the mark is centered in the inspection hole, is that #1 cylinder @ TDC? Is there a way I can easily set up the #1 cylinder on the compression stroke without breaking the seal @ the pushrod tubes?

Next, the instructions tell me to align the arrows on the rotor & housing and place the distributor in the engine.
Q2] Everytime I do this, the rotor wants to naturally rotate clockwise as it meshes in with the gears. This is normal right?

Q3] After installing the distributor I am to check the shutter "snap-back", rotate the shutter clockwise to full advance and then rotate the housing to again align the arrows which should now align my timing to start the bike?

Sorry guys, I'm probably beating this horse dead and looking into the details a bit too much, but I'm very detail oriented that way.
FlatHeadSix wrote:that's the second time tonight that I got "guested"

I was going to mention that my first experience with auto-advance timers was on a late model servicar flathead. Having no previous experience with auto-advance units I static timed it without manually advancing the timer shaft and it behaved the same way. Once I read the book (real men don't read instructions) and timed it while holding the rotor in full advance it started and ran just like it should. Imagine that!

mike

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