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Timer / Circuit Breaker Rebuild

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duoglide58
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Timer / Circuit Breaker Rebuild

#1

Post by duoglide58 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:27 am

I bought my bike in '94 and ditched the the manual timer because it would not hold the correct timing. I bought a Taiwan auto advance timer but would like to go back to the manual timer. At the time I had heck keeping it running due to slop in the timer. I could set the timing and drive down the block and it would start backfiring etc. I'd pull over and check the timing and it had changed. Years ago I bought new shaft bushing etc. But upon disassembly, there does not appear to be any play in the shaft and stem itself. The play seems to be in th joint between the base and the stem. Palmer's mentions that if there is play at this joint, you should try a different base on the stem. Well I don't have a bunch of spares laying around. So is there a repair that can be made to this joint such as installing a bushing in the base or possibly a bushing on the stem? I would hate to buy something off e-bay and possibly end up with the same or different problem.
Does anyone refurbish the timers? Anyone sell reconditioned units? I guess I should mentione I have a 1958 Duoglide.
Thank you,
Doug



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Re: Timer / Circuit Breaker Rebuild

#2

Post by Cotten » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:30 pm

Doug!

Endplay is determined by the thrustwasher between the gear and the stem.
I believe they are now available in varied thicknesses.

Beware that erratic timing can also result from excessive endplay of the drive gear within the cam chest. It may be that the aftermarket gear keeps it in bind at one spot, whereas returning to the original gear may let it float again.

....Cotten

duoglide58
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Re: Timer / Circuit Breaker Rebuild

#3

Post by duoglide58 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:14 pm

Cotten,
I don't believe this would be classified as end play that the washer above the gear would fix. The shaft seems to be tight enough within the stem. The base that holds the points is able to move on the stem. When I set the point gap, and drove down the road, it would start missing. I'd check the gap to find that it was not where I set it. Turns out that the base would move slightly side to side relative to the shaft. The fit of the base on the stem should be snug as to not allow it to cock but also needs to be loose enough so that the base can rotate as the timing cable is advanced.
Thank you,
Doug

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Re: Timer / Circuit Breaker Rebuild

#4

Post by Kuda » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:54 pm

duoglide58 wrote: The fit of the base on the stem should be snug as to not allow it to cock but also needs to be loose enough so that the base can rotate as the timing cable is advanced.
Just a dumb thought here: Have you tried pulling the spring and putting a little more bend into it? That might tighten up the base on the stem...

-Kuda
'49 panchop

Bosheff
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Re: Timer / Circuit Breaker Rebuild

#5

Post by Bosheff » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:03 pm

I have never encountered an aftermarket centrifugal advance timer that was worth the power it took to blow it to hell. All of the ones I ever layed my greasy mitts on would bind up when spinning the shaft by hand, even when new. Maybe someone produces/markets a quality piece these days, but years ago they were junk. Why not go with a mechanical advance "genuine" unit, or an electronic conversion piece, although most of the electronic ignitions I have experienced seemed to be short lived. A stock "genuine" centrifugal advance timer would be the cat's ass, but good luck findin one that you can pry from the owners hands. Hard to beat a "genuine" mechanical or centrifugal timer with a stock coil. Set em up correctly, check the points occasionally, and ride it like there's no tomorrow....bosheff

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Re: Timer / Circuit Breaker Rebuild

#6

Post by Cotten » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:23 pm

Doug!

The '64-'65 Factory auto-advance assembly was prone to the same problem of changing the gap with rotation of the points base. (Distortion of the base from the two locknuts made it worse..)

But on a manual assembly,
If, as Kuda suggests, tweaking the c-spring does not work because the slop between the base counterbore and the stem's mating flange is excessive, then sweating some silver-solder over the stem's flange perimeter, and lathe-turning it precise to match the points base may be in order.
But frankly, I have never encountered any that have required it. The fit, even with mismatched vintages, has always been sweet.
Another base and stem to compare with may shine light on damage or other problems.

I share Bosheff's opinion of aftermarket auto-advance units, (funky advance curve, shovelhead dwell, ugly, etc.), but they will work in a pinch.

....Cotten

duoglide58
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Re: Timer / Circuit Breaker Rebuild

#7

Post by duoglide58 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:28 pm

I never have like the advanc curve of the aftermarket distributor even after swapping out some springs etc.

I have not tried adjusting the spirng. Do you mean widening the or openning up the "C" spring?
I'll give it a try.
My neighbor manufacturs starters ect. I have thought about taking it to him to see if he can put a bushing in the base or on the stem to tighten up the fit.
Thank you,
Doug

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Re: Timer / Circuit Breaker Rebuild

#8

Post by Kuda » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:41 pm

duoglide58 wrote:I have not tried adjusting the spirng. Do you mean widening the or openning up the "C" spring?
Just pull the spring out and *gently* bend it over a screwdriver handle or similar. The spring is shaped like a C, but it should also have some curve to it, i.e. if you place it on a flat surface with the little "lips" on the open end pointing down, the part on the opposite side of the opening should be off the surface slightly (can't remember the exact dimension). If the spring is flat, it's not putting enough tension on the base to properly hold it. But TOO much tension and the timer becomes hard to turn. And by the way, all this is for a stock timer. I've avoided the aftermarket stuff successfully for years and will continue to do so if at all possible...

-Kuda
'49 panchop

Cotten
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Re: Timer / Circuit Breaker Rebuild

#9

Post by Cotten » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:19 pm

Doug!

When you look at the spring from the side,
it looks like two wide "W"s, with a broad flat area at the closed part of the "C", and two very small flats at the open ends of the "C".

These flat surfaces should stay parallel to press evenly upward upon the points base.

The crotches of the Ws press downward upon the bail, so bending the wide legs of the Ws narrower, and then correcting the flats to parallel, gives the spring more tension.

To aid assembly, I often clip the inboard tang of the bail to a point, so it goes into its crotch directly. Then the outboard insertion is easy. If not, I clip it too!

Good luck,

....Cotten

duoglide58
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Re: Timer / Circuit Breaker Rebuild

#10

Post by duoglide58 » Mon May 02, 2011 12:38 am

I went out to the shop today and came up with a solution to tighten the fit between the points base and the stem. I studied the base wondering if I goud get a bushing installed and then it occurred to me that I might be able to shrink the hole. I inverted the base and on the underside, the hole for the shaft is kind of funnel shaped toward the engine. I took a 12 pt 3/4" socket and it just starts to fit over the shaft openning. The edges of the socket are tapered so driving the socket over the shaft openning, it should shrink the openning. Supporting the base with another socket to to keep from distorting the base I beat the socket down over the openning. I had to work the socket off and then test fit the shaft. I repeated the socket rotaing it slightly to tighten up a different portion of the openning. I test fit the shaft again using anti-sieze to aid in separating the shaft. I then switched to a 19 mm socket and hammered it down. Now the fit on the shaft was tight but a little too tight to rotate the base easily. A little sand paper in the base gave the necessary tolerance. Now I need to slap some paint on the base and stem to freshen it up.
Doug

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Re: Timer / Circuit Breaker Rebuild

#11

Post by Bigincher » Mon May 02, 2011 2:02 am

I love barnyard engineering. Sometimes it really works well..!

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Re: Timer / Circuit Breaker Rebuild

#12

Post by Panacea » Mon May 02, 2011 1:35 pm

Reminds me of my first wrist pin bushing replacement, I had no reamer so I used a deep socket wrapped with 600 grit wet or dry sandpaper. Don't tell anyone...

duoglide58
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Re: Timer / Circuit Breaker Rebuild

#13

Post by duoglide58 » Mon May 02, 2011 6:27 pm

I had no reamer so I used a deep socket wrapped with 600 grit wet or dry sandpaper
In my extensive collection of broken and dull drill bits, I think I have one fluted reamer, but it was too big. To ream / sand the openning, I used sand paper wrapped around a 3/8" extension bar for a socket wrench. The extension bar was nearly the same diameter as the timer's shaft assembly.
My methods are kind of like me, I ain't pretty, but I can get the job done. :wink:
Doug

duoglide58
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Re: Timer / Circuit Breaker Rebuild

#14

Post by duoglide58 » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:00 am

I finally got the manual timer installed. I had a setback with the handlebars which were a V-twin reproduction that I bought in '99 after my bike wreck bent up the other set. These bars and spirals have been the biggest pain to get the spirals working. One end of the bar was shorter than the other and the holes for the spiral cable housing set screws were drilled past the horn and headlight switches. I've seen some posts on here that the newer reproduction bars are of better quality, but these were terrible. First impression is the bike has more power than when I ran the auto advance timer. I have not even tried to optimize the timing yet. I had not driven the bike with the manual advance in about 15 years.
Doug

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