need help, cant set timing on pan...

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fourthgear
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Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#31

Post by fourthgear » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:11 am

Bro , if you don't have a shop manual , you need to get one or barrow one.

It still appears you have a timing problem , we know it ran before .

The point set up is more forgiving to timing than the electronic.

Do you have hydr. or solid lifters ? They may also be adj. improperly.



vitza
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Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#32

Post by vitza » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:15 am

so i messed with the bike some more... found the reason of not firing :mrgreen:

first checked the 180 off thing... i def wasn't...

then figured id recheck the intake manifold for leaks (cottens method)... none. as i was doing it though i noticed a hissing coming from the sparkplug hole. opened up the pushrod covers and what-do-ya know, both intake pushrods were super tight and valves were slightly open, made perfect sense why the bike never fired! adjusted the pushrods and all was peachy, WAY more compression when kicking

but still nothing

then figured id adjust the timing to the line instead of that dot and the bike kinda sorta tried to come to life!! but i couldnt get it going... im a bit baffled as it made sense that the dot was the BTDC mark the ignition was suppose to be set to, although in the installation instructions, he says set it to the line (TDC?), i dont know what my flywheels are or what the marks stand for but it appears it wants to go on the line.

so couple weird things i noticed...
-first one is once in a while (it mostly happened in the 2nd video below) the kicker becomes stuck as if it has too much compression and the motor isnt turning over, what would be the cause of this, the motor still being fresh and not broken in?
-second thing is everytime the bike shakes the fuel level in the fuel hose goes down noticeably, i figured it was just the bowl filling but it keeps doing it. i adjusted the float to 1/8" below the rim of the carb w/ the bowl upside down and sitting the needle by hand. what could this be?

first video
this is the timing set on the "dot" mark on the flywheel, i'll mention things like "enricher on", "enricher off", "throttle off", throttle on/open"
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

second video
timing is set on the line... again i'll mention things im doing, throttle, enricher, etc... also, notice the kicker becoming fixed when kicking
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thoughts?
Last edited by vitza on Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

vitza
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Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#33

Post by vitza » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:17 am

fourthgear wrote:Bro , if you don't have a shop manual , you need to get one or barrow one.

It still appears you have a timing problem , we know it ran before .

The point set up is more forgiving to timing than the electronic.

Do you have hydr. or solid lifters ? They may also be adj. improperly.
well i just dont know which one to get... i want to buy palmers book but i cant find it anywhere. on amazon its like $800, which i cant afford... as far as a generic one, the engine isnt a real pan (S&S genny cases, STD top end) so i doubt the manual for the real deal would be of any use...

lifters are solid w/ an andrews B grind cam... figured the adjustment thing out earlier today :oops:

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Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#34

Post by jdpan » Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:31 am

The kicker is getting 'stuck' because youre not putting enough ass into it, you need some rocks in your pockets.. You may be giving it too much fuel. Try this for the hell of it, I did this on a friends S&S and it worked... Lean the bike over on the right side and with the throttle wide open, let all the gas drain out, if you look in the carb and see any puddling, theres too much fuel and its flooding out... Drain the fuel then kick it over a few times with the throttle wide open ignition off, then light it up and see what happens.. Do not twist the throttle unless it sparks. It sounds like it wants to fire..
The Clymers book isnt perfect but its better than nothing, you can get an original reproduction on ebay or you might find a PDF online.

RUBONE
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Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#35

Post by RUBONE » Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:24 am

OK, use a little logic here. Rotate your engine while looking in the timing hole.The FIRST mark to appear is the advance mark, despite what you instructions say! The next if there is one is the retard mark, and the last one is TDC, and should correspond withe the front piston at top dead.
Therefore, the timing needs to be at FULL advance when the FIRST mark comes into the hole. Period. End of story!
Robbie

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Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#36

Post by vitza » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:37 am

jdpan wrote:The kicker is getting 'stuck' because youre not putting enough ass into it, you need some rocks in your pockets.. You may be giving it too much fuel. Try this for the hell of it, I did this on a friends S&S and it worked... Lean the bike over on the right side and with the throttle wide open, let all the gas drain out, if you look in the carb and see any puddling, theres too much fuel and its flooding out... Drain the fuel then kick it over a few times with the throttle wide open ignition off, then light it up and see what happens.. Do not twist the throttle unless it sparks. It sounds like it wants to fire..
The Clymers book isnt perfect but its better than nothing, you can get an original reproduction on ebay or you might find a PDF online.
ahh that makes sense!! i was pretty much beat by that last video when that "problem" started happening... my right leg is in complete pain actually AND my knee gave out a couple times when i walked... gotta love a bike w/ character! haha...

ya i emptied the fuel outta the carb like that a couple times, not too much came out, it actually didnt really even drip or anything... but i do think its flooding the engine and wetting the plugs... i'll mess with it some more monday after my leg heals up
RUBONE wrote:OK, use a little logic here. Rotate your engine while looking in the timing hole.The FIRST mark to appear is the advance mark, despite what you instructions say! The next if there is one is the retard mark, and the last one is TDC, and should correspond withe the front piston at top dead.
Therefore, the timing needs to be at FULL advance when the FIRST mark comes into the hole. Period. End of story!
Robbie
so you're saying the sideways 8 is the proper mark to set it at? it seems waaaay too advanced but i guess i'll look into it on monday... all i know though is the bike wanted to fire more on the line than on that dot... on the dot it wasnt doing anything at all... i'll check on that sideways 8 thing though, maybe get a degree wheel on it... timing should be 35 or 37 degree's advanced?



thanks fella's, keep the advice coming!

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Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#37

Post by Cotten » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:27 pm

steinauge wrote:The lazy 8,dot, line timing mark arrangement suggests post march 1981 commonized taper flywheels.In that case the dot is the advance fire mark and the line is TDC front cylinder.to be sure bring the dot up in the hole,put something in the spark plug hole touching the top of the piston(soda straw is good) and slowly turn the engine.If the front piston comes up a bit more and then starts down the dot is advance fire.If the piston immediately starts down the line is advance fire and the dot is TDC.HTH
Sorry to confuse things worse, but.....

If this motor has Factory flywheels,
why would it need stroker plates?

....Cotten

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Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#38

Post by Pomike » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:07 pm

I wonder how the battery is? Most people have good luck with the ebeyond gear, but I am a little suspicious of it with a low battery, as most electronic ignitions won't fire as well as points, with a low battery. Or the best fix I've found, for my old knee. Wonder button connected to a starter. Oh yeah!!
Mike

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Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#39

Post by Cotten » Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:03 pm

Vitza!

Please get the sodastraw back out, and feel for the front piston coming up and down as the motor is turned through slowly.
Then take a felt-tip pen and make a mark right at plug level when the piston is at the bottom of its stroke, and again at the top.
This will give us a guestimate of your stroke.

Then print this out:
TIMEWHEL.jpg
Cut it out with scissors and stick it on your motorsprocket with double-sided tape or lock it gently under the nut if you can.
Make a pointer to hang off a primary screw hole or something, and set it on zero when the soda straw says the front piston is at top dead center.

Then cranks it slowly and read what degrees the different marks are at.
That may be the only way to be certain what they are!

Good luck,

....Cotten
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steve_wood
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Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#40

Post by steve_wood » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:37 pm

Tom:

What SHOULD the advance mark be at? 35 degrees?

kitabel
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Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#41

Post by kitabel » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:33 am

The straw's movement will always be more then the actual stroke distance because of the plug thread's angle - it moves both down and across the bore. Since the straw is a very loose fit, there's no way to compensate for the error.
IIRC this plug angle is 35° for 1936-84 big twins. If you buy or make a tool with the plug thread to do this, the 35° angle means the tool's probe will move 122.08% of the actual stroke distance.
The actual piston position for 35° (given as 7/16" in many manuals) is .446" for std. FL stroke with original 7.46875" rods.
To get the tool's travel distance, multiply the piston position by the angle's correction factor: 1.2208 × .446 = .545".
If your thread angle is different, correct by multiplying the tool's motion by the angle's cosine. Example: plug angle 45°, cosine is .7071. The tool moves .500", correct to .500 × .7071, or .354". When the tool shows .500", the piston is .354" down from TDC.

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Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#42

Post by Cotten » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:18 am

kitabel wrote:The straw's movement will always be more then the actual stroke distance because of the plug thread's angle - it moves both down and across the bore. Since the straw is a very loose fit, there's no way to compensate for the error.
IIRC this plug angle is 35° for 1936-84 big twins. If you buy or make a tool with the plug thread to do this, the 35° angle means the tool's probe will move 122.08% of the actual stroke distance.
The actual piston position for 35° (given as 7/16" in many manuals) is .446" for std. FL stroke with original 7.46875" rods.
To get the tool's travel distance, multiply the piston position by the angle's correction factor: 1.2208 × .446 = .545".
If your thread angle is different, correct by multiplying the tool's motion by the angle's cosine. Example: plug angle 45°, cosine is .7071. The tool moves .500", correct to .500 × .7071, or .354". When the tool shows .500", the piston is .354" down from TDC.
Kitabel!

At this point, a guesstimate will have to do.

Steve!

Good question!

I hear that quoted a lot, but I still have not found it in MOCO print.
And since I have always just trusted the MOCO factory mark, I scanned the degree wheel for Indians.
Some of them use a dollar sign!

....Cotten

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Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#43

Post by steve_wood » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:52 am

The manual, on page 209, has a diagram (upper right) that says 35 degrees. The text at that part of the manual is confusing. It seems to be referring to the "Glide model" which appears to be a manual advance circuit breaker.

Not much to go on...

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Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#44

Post by Cotten » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:44 pm

Steve!

I never noticed that breaker point tension spec either!

....Cotten

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Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#45

Post by steinauge » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:00 pm

Cotten, I know this is a bit out there but I used to see it fairly often.80" flywheels (49\32 or 41\4") will require a plate if used with 74" pistons.Our guy may just have that combination. The other thing is I have seen a LOT of these frankenstein engines with plates that didnt need them??? Dont know why.Not to mention the engines with 74 flywheels and 80" pistons. :lol:

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