need help, cant set timing on pan...

All ignition related articles
Cotten
Posts: 6913
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 275 times

Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#46

Post by Cotten » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:44 pm

Steinauge!

No doubt there are lots of motors built that baffle logic,
but why would anyone spend for plates and an oversized manifold just to get away with the wrong pistons?

Nevermind.

....Cotten



vitza
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:51 am
Bikes: panhead project
Location: california
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#47

Post by vitza » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:52 pm

hey guys! sorry i havent had a chance to hop in here an update... been super busy at work and just had one day to tinker w/ the bike...

battery was good and fully charged

cotten, thanks for that timing wheel!! i couldnt find mine anywhere... anyways, used it w/ the straw method... line is TDC, the little dot is 35degrees BTDC

kitabel, holy smokes man, you totally lost me lol... i was just trying to get a rough # of what that dot is... if i made marks on the flywheel then id def spend a little more time analyzing your formula to get things right

steinauge, i took the bike to a tech yesterday to get it going and he did infact say these were 80" flywheels... the guy i bought the motor from said it was an 88" motor...



so here's the update, took it to the tech, he's an old school guy who really specializes in pans and shovels... i got there a little late and he had customers so we didnt really have too much time to work on the bike
set the timing to the dot on the flywheel, then here's whats a little funky... the ebeyond pick up sleeve that goes on the timer cam has the white line on the rear cylinder lobe (not the front)... dunno whats up with this but shouldnt that line be on the front cylinder lobe? unless the unit was designed to pick up on the rear cylinder (then shouldnt i set the rear cylinder 35BTDC?)... so we set it on the other side of the line (so the line is facing away from the pickup sensor... kicked and pull started the bike w/ an atv... nothing
-i set the timing back again properly w/ the lines lined up and kickedkickedkicked... nothing... we didnt get a chance to pull start as it was pretty late, im gonna go there tomorrow and we'll try to mess with it some more

can you guys that have the ebeyond look at your cam lobe/sensor set up, is the line on the rear cylinder cam lobe?

fourthgear
Posts: 1392
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:12 pm
Location: north florida
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#48

Post by fourthgear » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:28 am

Are you sure your ign.coil is good ? Only good way to check is to put a known good one on & try it.
I would also check the ign. switch.

You should not have to pull the bike with an ATV to get it started .

And a Chiltons manual is better than nothing & it will cover a lot on even a frankenstein mtr..

mbskeam
Posts: 1006
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:52 am
Location: Sultan, WASH
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#49

Post by mbskeam » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:01 am

dude.....
put your points back in.....
very easy to understand, and wont leave you stranded on the side of the road....
I had one of those ebeyond ign......
went back to points, it made no real difference in starting or running, a bit lower idle if anything that is all.
when I gave it to a buddy to use it was dead.
it worked when I took it out, not sure what took it out, static elec is my guess.....
it was replaced under warranty, the new one worked...
so is yours good?????????
put the points in, if it starts then ya know.....

john HD
Moderator
Posts: 3704
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 7:24 pm
Bikes: '42 WLA X 2, '55FL, '93 Ultra Classic, '91 Fatboy, '97 883, '03 Rokon Trailbreaker, '83 GPz 750.
Has thanked: 54 times
Been thanked: 77 times

Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#50

Post by john HD » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:24 am

i think this is about the 5th one of these units i have seen member's having trouble with.

mike you read my mind. go back to points.

john

George Greer
Site sponsor
Site sponsor
Posts: 1398
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:48 am
Bikes: 1942 WLA Type III
Hybrid WL/KH bobber project.
58 FL
Location: Markt Einersheim, Bavaria. and soon to be back in the US, Portland Oregon
Has thanked: 268 times
Been thanked: 45 times
Contact:

Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#51

Post by George Greer » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:48 am

When I do get around to working on my FL engine, you guys can bet I am going to stay with the circuit breaker with points.

George

vitza
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:51 am
Bikes: panhead project
Location: california
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#52

Post by vitza » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:59 am

ya coil is good and ignition switch is good as well... both are brand new

so spent all day trying to get the bike going w/ that specialist... we pulled it with the atv and got it running finally, he dialed in the carb and the timer and the bike ran perfectly, no backfiring, steady/smooth idle, just perfect... we also shot some quickstart on the intake manifold and the idle started dropping so i guess i have a leak? even though i pressurized it, sprayed soapy water on and saw nothing... dunno why its leaking as the Orings are new and i snug them up w/o over tightening

anyways... the bike ran for a while and we shut it off, let it set for 5 min and i tried kicking it again and no go, pull started and bam! fired right up and ran smooth as butter

so the guy is pretty much saying that since the motor is all fresh and tight, the B-grind cam is making it pretty hard to start... the engine just isnt spinning fast enough to fire. so he recommended i put in a J-grind cam to break in the motor and then drop the B-grind back in once it loosens up a little... gonna give it a shot and see what happens

will keep you guys posted next week when the cam arrives... hopefully all will go well

ozwick86
Posts: 831
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:06 am
Bikes: '59 Pan FLHF
Location: N. California
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 36 times

Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#53

Post by ozwick86 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:06 am

Have you checked your clutch for slippage?

vitza
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:51 am
Bikes: panhead project
Location: california
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#54

Post by vitza » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:45 am

Oh wow, I dunno how that slipped my mind... ill call n have him check tomorrow

vitza
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:51 am
Bikes: panhead project
Location: california
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#55

Post by vitza » Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:25 am

so just wanted to update and thank you guys for all the help.

bike now is a one kick bike.

basically, took care of the intake manifold leak, threw the jgrind cam in, and most importantly, fixed the timing issue. what happened was that the sleeve that goes on the timer cam had the magnets loose inside it. i called and spoke w/ ed (the guy who makes these) and he sent me out a new one... threw it in and BAM bike fired up effortlessly. runs pretty smooth and all that but the front spark gets so gunked up it looks like velvet on it. we messed around w/ the jetting, 68 main and i think a 32 intermediate... we played w/ a couple combinations and nothing works... im guessing it might be due to that intake leak?

also, the bike just drinks fuel like no other... i have a clear fuel hose and the fuel level drops about an 1" every 5 seconds... should it be going that fast? also, whenever the bike is turned off and i shake/wiggle it, the fuel level drops as well, ive sat and done it for like 10min thinking it could be air in the bowl or something and it just keeps going down... the float bowl is set at 1/8" while pressing the needle/retainer in.

can you guys recommend anything? i know the intake leak is #1 but any idea why the fuel disappears so quickly?

fourthgear
Posts: 1392
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:12 pm
Location: north florida
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#56

Post by fourthgear » Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:04 am

With the motor off , I'd say your float valve is bleeding by.

Cotten
Posts: 6913
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 275 times

Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#57

Post by Cotten » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:21 am

Vitza!

When you post: "front spark gets so gunked up it looks like velvet on it. ".
I would seriously repeat the manifold leak test, intensively, with special attention to the rear cylinder:
Do you have a constant air supply, through a regulator, so that you can wait a half a minute (at least) for the tiniest leaks to show a blister of foam?

If your test is thorough, and only one plug fouls badly,
then the possibilities of oil contamination from a breached headgasket, or past a valveguide must be considered.
Since you have new hardware, it seems unlikely that the usual damage around the outside of guide is the problem. Do you have valveguide seals, where one may have come off and acts like a pump down the guidebore?

....Cotten

vitza
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:51 am
Bikes: panhead project
Location: california
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#58

Post by vitza » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:12 pm

Cotten wrote:Vitza!

When you post: "front spark gets so gunked up it looks like velvet on it. ".
I would seriously repeat the manifold leak test, intensively, with special attention to the rear cylinder:
Do you have a constant air supply, through a regulator, so that you can wait a half a minute (at least) for the tiniest leaks to show a blister of foam?

If your test is thorough, and only one plug fouls badly,
then the possibilities of oil contamination from a breached headgasket, or past a valveguide must be considered.
Since you have new hardware, it seems unlikely that the usual damage around the outside of guide is the problem. Do you have valveguide seals, where one may have come off and acts like a pump down the guidebore?

....Cotten
heya cotten, thanks for the reply... sorry i couldnt get a chance to post earlier but just had a hectic little 4th of july weekend...

as far as the intake leak, i think i was doing it all wrong initially because i figured the bubbles would start forming right away instead of having to wait a minute or two... what can i make a pressure regulator attachment out of? also, how much psi should i keep in the manifold

i looked at the plugs closely and the contamination isnt shiny at all which leads me to believe it isnt an oil issue... as far as whats inside the head, im honestly not too sure as ive never had it apart. what i am worried about though is those stroker plates not having the oil drain hole cut into them and the oil is building pressure inside the head... i was told the best way to check is running the engine for 10min then shutting off and popping the pushrod covers off and if the oil starts gushing out then there's excess pressure built up... any thoughts on this?

Cotten
Posts: 6913
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 275 times

Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#59

Post by Cotten » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:17 pm

Vitza!

The manifold need only to be pressurized to 15 psi maximum.

Please do not expect it to hold air like a balloon; It is the function of the regulator to keep the pressure inside constant.

Attaching the regulator is usually a matter of common air line fittings. At such low pressure, common vinyl tubing will stay on barbed nipples easily. (One fellow used a small rubber ball crammed into the manifold, with a pen barrel poked through it!)

The tiniest of leaks can give tuning fits.

Your pushrod tubes are not drained by pressure, but by gravity.
It is proper for the tubes to have some oil within them for a minute or two after running.
If you have excessive oil, for quite some time, look for blockage (usually from the bottom seal, if it is not cork). Otherwise, your modern high-volume pump may be flooding the heads, which can foul plugs as well!

....Cotten

58flh
Posts: 3337
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:54 pm
Bikes: 1958flh 1969sporty,had a knuckle but sold back to original owner
Location: NEW JERSEY
Has thanked: 195 times
Been thanked: 259 times

Re: need help, cant set timing on pan...

#60

Post by 58flh » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:18 pm

Like bosheff said relax, he told you straight-up what the marks are & hes right-on! ---Also what I do when setting timing is raise the rear wheel off the groung an inch or 2,puit i3rd gear & get that line in the middle of the hole using the rear wheel!-this will take-up all the slack in the gears,primarychain,cam--so your ending-up with a true TDC. Now get a voltmeter or testlight & advance your dist. rotate your discplate not dist. until light comes on --there! tighten the 2 screws & as you probably know always recheck that plate moves it may take 2-3 times but youll get it! .022 gap on points I go a loose 29 on my plugs also I use bosh platinums. On a cold morning i twist it 3 times dryfire 2times hit the ignition & 1 kick is all it takes everytime. Even when engine hot like a quick 711 stop for something. Then I just turn on the ignition & 1 kick & instant idle I do not give no gas when hot even 1 twist & your kickin 20 or 30 haha more like 10 or 15 & who the hell wants to do that? Anyway just listen to the guys on yhis site you will be guided in the correct direction---they know what there talking about---GOOD-LUCK----58flh

Post Reply

Return to “Ignition”