Wide Glide triple trees

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gordon

Wide Glide triple trees

#1

Post by gordon » Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:45 am

Ok Maybe one of you out there with a little more knowledge than I can help with this one. I'm trying to figure out when harley went from a 3 degree de raked tripple tree to a o degree raked tripple tree. The problem I'm having is I have a set of trees that have o degree rake that I thought were 49-59 so I ordered a set of stock glide risers from the J&P catalog for 49-59 but there the wrong size! It seems the 49-59 top tree has a half inch hole for the riser bolt and is solid and has a four and a half inch hole pattern for the risers. The trees I have got the three and a half inch hole pattern and the large hole for the press in the top tree riser bushing.
I could order a 49-59 top tree from J&P or find a used OEM one but if the 49-59 trees are de raked three degrees it won't fit the lower tree$$$
Help Anyone!............Thanks, Gordon



fourthgear
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Re: Wide Glide triple trees

#2

Post by fourthgear » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:24 pm

Post by fourthgear on Feb 19, 2006, 1:24pm

I don't believe HD has ever made a raked tree . Sounds like you have a late mod. top or set , I think they changed to the newer type risers in 1973 . The risers have a narrower pattern for mounting and different riser bushings . You can change to the newer riser/bushing set up and as long as they are for one inch bars it will work fine . It will not have the look of the org. style ( narrower )but will probable dampen felt vibrations much better. The new ones ( trees)if you look at , some don't have the top holes for tins, they have a conversion priced separately.

ned

Re: Wide Glide triple trees

#3

Post by ned » Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:32 pm

Gordon
To the best of my knowledge.
1)49-59 triple trees,minus 2 degrees rake on bottom tree.Top tree has 4 3/4 inch hole centre and 1/2 inch holes for risers.Risers have rubber bushes in them.
2)60-73 triple trees,minus 2 degrees rake on bottom tree.Top tree has 3 1/2 inch hole centre and two large holes to take the same bushings as the 49-59 risers take.
3)74-84 triple trees,minus 2 degrees rake on bottom tree.Top tree has 3 1/2 inch hole centre and two large counter bored holes to take a revamped busning consisting of 2 cupped washers,2 sleeves and 4 rubbers
(times 2.)
4)With the introduction of the FXWG(1980),the bottom triple tree now has a positive 3 degree rake.The top tree has the same bushing setup as the 74-84,but the top tree has been designed to suit the 3 degree raked bottom tree.The top tree of an FLH will not fit with the bottom tree of an FXWG,and the top tree of an FXWG will not fit a bottom tree of an FLH.
Hope this is of some help.
Ned

Ned

Re: Wide Glide triple trees

#4

Post by Ned » Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:46 pm

Correction on 74-84 bushings.2 cuppsed washers,1 sleeve and 2 rubbers(times 2)Also the riser bolt for 49-59 riser has a special slot headed 1/2 inch UNF bolt and lock nut(times 2)The riser bolts for 60-73 are 1/2 inch UNF and the riser is 1 piece to take two piece bars.The 74-84 riser is made of aluminium and will take normal 1 piece bars.

Ned

Re: Wide Glide triple trees

#5

Post by Ned » Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:51 pm

74-84 riser has two 1/2 inch UNC bolts.
(A bit scattered on my first night shift back after the weekend.) Ned.

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Re: Wide Glide triple trees

#6

Post by panster » Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:41 am

Re: Wide Glide Tripple Trees
Post by panster on Feb 20, 2006, 1:41am

Hi Gordon,
in my (limited) experience, rigid Hydras use parallel trees, i.e. no rake + or - . This has been the case on my '54, and a set of '51 trees I have used.
I have had two FLH's a '75 and a '79, these both had the DE-raked trees with the narrow spaced rubber mount risers.
I haven't owned a Duo, so can't be sure what year they de-raked, but I would suspect it was with the swing arm frame, or possibly when the alloy headlight nacelle was introduced (maybe).
Also it is true that the later ('84) FXWG used paralell trees and I have seen a wideglide top tree (narrow risers) fitted to a Hydra bottom tree.
I don't think H-D have ever used trees with added rake.
Hope this is of some help.
J.

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Re: Wide Glide triple trees

#7

Post by Billy » Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:35 am

Post by sleeper on Feb 20, 2006, 7:35am

Quote: "I don't believe HD has ever made a raked tree".

Well they sure did have adjustable trees for Hd's that were gonna use a sidehack..To add rake, for stability with the hack. & reduce it w/out hack.
& '58 & newer Servicars using the Glide style front ends came stock w/10* of added rake to the trees.
HD has indeed, & is still playing w/adding rake as it suits the needs.

gordon

Re: Wide Glide triple trees

#8

Post by gordon » Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:30 am

Thanks everyone for all your input on this.
Fourthgear, Yes they did change risers in 1973 but the problem with the 72 and earlyer top tree is there made for the press in steel and rubber bushing which has a larger dia. than the later model top tree that takes the two urethane dampers with the steel tube in the middle.
I've thought about trying to find some urethane round stock and milling a few sets of dampers to fit the larger hole in the 72 and earlyer top trees so just about any risers would fit, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

Ned , I think I might have a mismatched set of trees, The bottom tree has the raised number 4570-48 and a 9 on the other side of the stem. And the top tree has the number 56120-60
according to your post the top tree must be the 60-73 top that takes the press in steel and rubber bushing and one piece 3.5" bolt pattern riser. And since the lower tree has a part number that ends with 48 I assume it must be a 48-59 lower, Also I have these installed on the bike with tubes , lower legs , etc. and they are deffintly both parallel upper and lower trees with no + or - rake even though they are from different years? Harley must have made some zero rake trees in both these year groups for this set I have to exzist but I can't seem to find any referance to this in any of the many parts books I have?

1

Re: Wide Glide triple trees

#9

Post by 1 » Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:56 am

Panster, Let me ask you something, Does your top tree have the solid mount half inch hole with the four and a half inch bolt pattern?
Also are you using the stock early bearing cups with the (16 roller) bearing?
The bearings and cups I have on this bike are aftermarket chrome ones and the top tree nut is only able to catch about 3 threads.
I'm thinking the earlier lower tree I have has a shorter stem than the newer ones and the aftermarket bearings and cups might be fatter than the older original ones.

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Re: Wide Glide triple trees

#10

Post by panster » Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:07 pm

Hi Gordon,
yep, I am using the top tree with the wider, solid mount riser hole spacing.
You are right about the frame cups, the aftermarket ones are taller.
I bought mine from a recommendation by Vintagetwin, they are made by Mark Blankenship, and they are superb replicas of the Hydra cups.
There is a piece about this on the other board, with lots of relavent info. I'm not sure that there were different length stems on any years.
Billy, yeah I knew about the adjustables but didn't think they counted here, I had never heard of those Servi' trees though, 10 degrees of extra rake !! I'm suprised you don't see them on every chop built since 1958,.. always learning..thanks.

gordon

Re: Wide Glide triple trees

#11

Post by gordon » Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:01 am

Panster, Thanks for the info, Harley must have changed the length of the neck casting or the length of the stem on the trees from the earley bikes to the newer ones for the bearing cups to be that different. It looks like I'll have to find an earley set of cups to make this work.
Also it sounds like the earley solid mount top tree is what I'm now on the hunt for.
Hey have you got a contact number for Mark Blankenship.?
Thanks again, Gordon

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Re: Wide Glide triple trees

#12

Post by fourthgear » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:49 am

Well ya learn something new every day, I had no idea Harley put any rake in there (FIXED)clamp set and as far as what clamp sets we were talking about , I should have not assumed we were talking about fixed clamp sets , I have a set of adj. on mine and adj. means adj.. Where does this info come from ? Is there a spec sheet some where to tell ya what plus or minus clamp set you have and why rake the clamp set if you have the neck raked, turn-ability when moving or what is the purpose? I can see why the adj. with a side car. Inquiring minds want to know!

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Re: Wide Glide triple trees

#13

Post by Billy » Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:35 am

fourthgear-

(sorry for the detour, off (fixed)Wide Glide trees, to adjustables).. Kinda disrupts the train of thought.

"Is there a spec sheet some where to tell ya what plus or minus clamp set you have and why rake the clamp set if you have the neck raked, turn-ability when moving or what is the purpose? Inquiring minds want to know!"

Info is in my HD Servi-Car Service Manual, & Parts Catalog..

The 1958 & newer Glide fr end Servi-Cars's have the 10 degree (fixed) raked trees.
They look the same as the adjustables,
But are FIXED solid.....(raked-out)

I've found & read by HD (moco) this was to help stabilize handling for the servi's.

Stock frame rake = 23* + 10*trees = 33*
My '73 Servi has a good 3" Positive Trail.... ;D
Far as I know, only Servi's had these 10* fixed trees (oem) 1958-'73

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Re: Wide Glide triple trees

#14

Post by fourthgear » Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:42 pm

billy
So whats with the others ? It also makes since about the servi-car 's handling , and to some extent to std bikes ( just two wheels ) I know about the after market raked clamp sets (triple trees ) and believe you could have negative handling characteristics for a little show , so to speak. I just wounder why you would have a minus or plus rake on fixed clamp sets ( triple trees ) for looks with different models? Steering ? The manual of course has the procedure for adj. steering set up when adj. damper (adj. clamp set) and stem nut .Could that have something to do with it? Wheel flop over?

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Re: Wide Glide triple trees

#15

Post by Billy » Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:50 am

fourthgear-

(1) cheaper for HD in all cases to play w/trees (+ - *'s )rather than change long running production frame "rake degrees ".

The rake is NOT the angle of the forks, although in a lot - if not the vast majority - of cases they happen to be the same, but HD moco has been playing, and are more adventurous than most in playing with the fork yokes to such an extent that the apparent rake, seen in the more easily spotted fork legs, is not always as it appears. The first time we were really aware of it was the 4-speed FXWG which shared the common FL frame of the shovelhead Electra Glide, complete with its 30-degree rake, and they built a couple of degrees into the yokes to give it the appearance of a chopper without rejigging for the chassis. Neat idea, but not new to HD moco, who had been doing the opposite with the Glides for years with a -2 degree rake. (fixed trees)

(read the link) http://www.american-v.co.uk/technical/h ... /geometry/

But having Correct "Trail" is key to good handling, on any bike or trike......

HD has been adding, & reducing tree rake to best achieve (good "Trail").....& looks.
A modern example is the Road King.
w/only 28* of rake, yet it still has 6" pos trail. (sweet)
This was done by putting the tubes behind the stem (inverted trees) Makes for a good 'neutral' feel steering for a Heavy bagger. But (inverted) trees have been used since 1980 on FLT's only !! & Still used to this day.

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