I need some help with an old bike

Information on the identification and numbering of frame, motor belly, transmission and other parts
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milwaukee
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#61

Post by milwaukee » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:09 am

Glove :
i really think your bike will be at the top just as it is now . why would you change your motor for a panhead ?
see : you are now the lucky owner of a real vintage CHOPPER , with all its history ! what a nice scoot as it is NOW !

you lucky guy !
see your forks : it is an original one . early brazed model with +2" original extension . and it has a big-twin neck stem .
this forh usually fits some rare 1942 Knucks ( called ELC ) or HD flat-twin experimentals XA models . this is NOT the kind of fork you will find as you snap your fingers !
you got a Wico Magnéto on your motor ! this is really a big chance !
all this scoot has been créated part by part by a lone biker in the great chopper years . and it really looks fine to me !

all parts are CLEAN and in very-good shape !

i know i know "it's not original"... but think about it before dismantling it and trade the parts you have for else ones ....
really : i swear ! if it was mine : i KEEP IT JUST AS IT IS NOW !!!!
here will be the real difference with other scoots !
your scoot has an history !
be proud of it .

Fran-6



VPH-D
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#62

Post by VPH-D » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:30 pm

The frame is no newer than 51.
The non-flattened down tubes seem to indicate 48.
Is the damper pin boss unmolested or does it look like the damper pin was cut off?
The trans appears to be mid 50 or older, with a post 51 kicker cover.
A lot of stock looking hardware, frame clips and such, you can only hope these things are still parkerized under the fur.
The perfect home for an early pan motor.
VPH-D

Glove
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#63

Post by Glove » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:35 pm

milwaukee.belle- / Fran ...you are right, the bike does have some appeal. Dont get me wrong- it is a beautiful piece of history to me. I wont be swapping engines anytime soon (lots of loot for a panhead).
I was more interested in finding out as much as I can about the parts and pieces I have before I decide to change anything.
Hell, I cant afford to change much right off.

VPH-D- now that I am learning about these old bikes I want to take the time to get what I have going. If I can locate a pan engine from the era of the frame, I would not be against changing out just the engine.
*I will do some more homework on those forks- Thans for the info!


So yesterday I pulled the cap off the wico mag and thought I was going to set the points @ about .015.
Welll...I learned I dont understand mags. I dont understand at what point on what lobe the points open. I played around with trying to get the gap right but I couldnt get any spark. Is there anyway I can test the mag to make sure it will fire when I get a new set of points and condensor?
Is the WICO better than a stock distributor?
(I compare this thing to something like a MSD ignition for V-8 hot rods, no?)

I wanted to test compression, but my gauge needs an adaptor for the large plug holes.
The carb contained some of the thickest, blackest nasty old gas I have ever seen- its soaking. I did take a couple pics that I will load up in a bit. I wanted to get another opinion about a screw that looks ugly.

....Ill be back

Glove
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#64

Post by Glove » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:47 pm

Hey Cotten...
Speaking of hot rod go fast goodies, check this out...

Image

There were #6 and #5 heads correct? and these are aluminum?

I took some pics of the ignition with the cap off but the pics didnt turn out.
I can get enough pressure from the cylinders to push my thumb off the hole but I dont know if its enough to get a pop.

I will be getting some carb gaskets and a float soon. I think the spark is going to be my biggest challenge.

Ohh, almost forgot.... is this a really bad thing? Looks like what is left of a screw located next to the fixed high speed jet inside the bowl (it might be the fixed jet- I dont really know...)

Image

VPH-D

#65

Post by VPH-D » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:36 pm

I forgot to mention yesterday that the forks look like XA.
VPH-D

Cotten
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#66

Post by Cotten » Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:50 am

Glove!

I can't trust my memory, and I haven't my references handy, but I think the numbers stand for volume of the combustion chamber, and lower means higher compression. Its been a few years since my last 45" overhaul.

The first thing to do with any mag is thoroughly clean it, making certain there is no trace of insulating corrosion between the coil and ground, etc.

The boogery screw next to the fixed jet is just a gallery plug.

....Cotten

Glove
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More pics!

#67

Post by Glove » Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:37 pm

I just wanted to say thanks again for all the info you guys are giving. Its not just info- its education.

So because I dont really know what to look for I took some more pictures and added them to my photobucket account -

http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n186 ... ollection/


VPH-D, you and others have asked about the damper pin boss area. When I refer to the picture P1210115.JPG (pg 2 from Panacea) in comparison to my neck area- things appear different. I dont see the chrome hex shaped pin like in the pic from Panacea.

Image

Image

I also tried to investigate my engine a little further. I found casting or part numbers located on the bottom of each barrel-
the front of the forward barrel has a stamping that resembles an M and the numbers 7-4.
Image

the rear of this barrel reaads 120-36
Image

The rear barrel has 120-361 on the front and what looks like 23-4 on the back side.
Image
I tried to sign up on flatheadpower but I cant log in and pick brains over there just yet. I thought I would see if anyone 'here' wanted to chime in.

Fran-6 & VPH-D... ELC / XA forks eh?
VPH-D you say XA. I know the XA models you speak of- 1000 produced- copied from the BMW bikes.
I have some books with pics of these bikes and I see maybe one good shot showing the extention.
Image
Image
Fran, I see you have an opinion about old springer forks :lol: ...
Can you or anyone explain more details about the XA forks vs ELC types?
From what I have read thus far, there just isnt much info...?
-I did catch something about a few of these XA machines being used for training at Ft. Knox- its possible (being that KY is close to IN) and hearing that for every machine produced for the military there were 10 'component repair sets' (engine, trans, ect) and for every component set there were 10 sets of parts and pieces to back those up..... :shock: - is it possible (durring the war time steel shortages) that they would have produced all the extras for the XA models?

VT

#68

Post by VT » Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:34 pm

Careful with drilling the pin out of your anchor pin boss. It's not 5/16, but one decimal size smaller. Get the replacement anchor pin first and mic it. The pin is a driven fit. Yours appears to have been cut off at the surface. You can try an easy-out to remove it. You may need to heat the boss some. Heat the boss, and spray WD-40 on it. Convection may draw the WD-40 in. There may be a better way known to others.

Glove
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Frame and Forks

#69

Post by Glove » Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:53 pm

Vintage Twin
I am trying to learn, its sinking in.
Springer forks used a stearing damper- and there is a flatten end of cross bar on the lower part of the frame that the little stablizer bar (lower part of the damper) slides into.
The Hydra-glide forks use an adjustable knob- very different and does not connect to the frame under the bottom of the neck.
So would an early 49 frame (no flattened down tubes)- with a hydra-glide fork- have this cross-bar for the use of the springer damper?

Would the 1950 or 51 model frames have this provision?

*In late 1949 flattened down tubes below the horn mount tabs (no tabs for a springer mounted horn?)
*in 1950 the oil filter bracket hole next to the seat post-Would the down tubes of these frames be flattened as well? Do the 1948 and 49 frames NOT have these holes?
I was looking at one of my books- The Complete HD History by Tod Rafferty. On page 67 I see a picture of a 48 EL owned by Mike Lady / restored by Scott Ashley. I see what appears to be the same boss- no pin- just in front of the speed-o housing. Tough to see real clear, but I could snap a picture of this page.
but again, if I have a 48 frame, would I have the two holes next to the seatpost (oil filter &?)
No?
Well would a 1950 frame not have the flattened down-tubes?
:?
I guess thats the loop I am stuck in for the frame.

Fran, VPH-D
The only thing I can find about extended forks (in my books and the net)-
Models XA and ELC
According to Conners data book-
XA poduction was 1,011 in 42- Conner lists a 43-XA Solo twin special model for US Army, but no production numbers.
The ELC was a 61" Canadian Army bike n 42 and only 45 were produced.
Tough to see the forks in pictures when they are all in full dress.
I would like to know more about extended forks.
I always thought the bike was a little more nose up from just having a 21" front rim.

VT

#70

Post by VT » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:08 pm

If your frame has an anchor pin boss it might be a '49-up frame. The '48 frames had no pin boss? You might do better looking at Palmer's restoration book. There's some on amazon used.
I don't know about flattened horn bracket mounts, my '59 doesn't even have a horn. I just yell at people and drive defensively. Palmer's book should clear things up for you as you go along. I don't know how one person could collect so much information and cram it into one book even with the help of all his friends.
Last edited by VT on Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Glove
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#71

Post by Glove » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:32 pm

The book is comming- just not soon enough :cry:

I think I answered my own question- both forks use a strut/support/link/-"bar" connecting the frame to the bottom of the forks.

VT- I know its a broken record by now. In the BIG PICTURE, getting a date for this frame is really not even important in order to ride this thing. I just thought I should take a look at each piece - ID/date it-confirm it works/fix whats broke and someday take a ride on it.
I know more today than I did in may of 99 :lol:
Dont tire of me just yet!

VPH-D
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#72

Post by VPH-D » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:51 pm

The picture of the neck area showing the unfinished damper boss tells us this frame is an early 48. The numbers on the barrel base flange are manufacturing date codes. [7-4] I will need to look at my notes to remember how to read them. What kind of confidential numbers are on the lower front of the cases?
VPH-D

Glove
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#73

Post by Glove » Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:28 pm

VPH-D- "What kind of confidential numbers are on the lower front of the cases? "
Would the observation of these numbers be possible with-out having the engine off the frame? -if not-I wanted to do that and possibly 'go through' the engine to be sure I should even try to make it run again.
- not just the engine, seems to skip a tooth when kicking- the wico needs inspected (found some good info from beautyofspeed about wico)- complete carb break-down and then I still need to find a way to make the trans shift, brakes stop, lights work ect ect....

So during this process...untill I have some more loot ($200 in reading material this week)... I need to pick brains.
I see there is a debate about this frame. Its been going on for a few years.
thats why I am here so lets look at the other things...
VPH-D you say its a 1948- VT- you say its not and you both are looking at only the neck-
what about the flattened tubes that were late 1949...- I dont have flat tubes so this favors the 48 (or early 49)- but
I have those little holes on the seat tube- VT says the one on the right is for the oil filter bracket- this favors 1950- BUT- WOULD THE TUBES BE FLATTENEND?
VPH-D I need to know if the 48 and 49 frames have the two holes.

I can not say if I do/did/did not have horn mounts. I do not see any other brackets or tabs. If this was indeed an early 49 frame ordered w/ the springer forks (and it has no pin- but has a boss)- would it use fork mounts and not have the tabs for the horn on the frame...
Easier to ask or learn- would ALL frames have the flattened down tubes after late 1949?

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#74

Post by VPH-D » Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:29 pm

I'm pretty sure the frame is an early 48, based on the unfinished damper boss. You won't find any horn mounts on the frame, because the horn was mounted to the springer. I scoped out a frame or two like yours in person, and they were 48s.

The two round neds near the seat post are present from 37? thru at least 65 on Big Twin frames. On Knuckleheads, they were used for wiring terminals, and on later Pans, the right one mounted the oil filter.

Confidential numbers are more commomly known as belly numbers now-a-days. I suspect yours will be 42**** thru 45****, as the cases are probably WLA spares.
VPH-D

Glove
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#75

Post by Glove » Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:11 pm

VPH-D I will see if I can get those numbers.
I just hope I dont dig up any ghosts.

I know I need books but they aint going to be here before I touch the bike again.
While I am here would anyone like to give me the lowdown on pulling the engine? If you look through the pics in the photobucket link, you will see there are several bolts missing on the front and rear engine mounts- the engine is pretty straight forward aside from getting the sprocket off. What is the process for getting the trans un-mated?
*this will give me a chance to look more closely at the mysterious sprocket too.

Glove

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