Help me please...

Information on the identification and numbering of frame, motor belly, transmission and other parts
Post Reply
wyskay
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:59 pm
Bikes: Harley-Davidson Roadking twincam
HD. FL 53 Panhead
Location: Spain
Has thanked: 2 times

Help me please...

#1

Post by wyskay » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:38 pm

Hi guys my name is Daniel and I'm from Spain.
I want to buy a Panhead from 1954 that is in Germany, but the problem is that both the engine number, chassis number and do not give me confidence, because I find differences that make me suspicious and as in this page better understand I ask no one these bikes for your help. I put photos ...
http://img153.imageshack.us/i/iphon1034.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://img440.imageshack.us/i/iphon1035.jpg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://img155.imageshack.us/i/p1060643.jpg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://img209.imageshack.us/i/p1060640.jpg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://img242.imageshack.us/i/p1060631.jpg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am also trying to find out if there any records of Harley-Davidson where you can order the history of the motorcycle.
Sorry my English, as we see is not very good.
Greetings and thank you very much



kitabel
Posts: 882
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:10 pm
Bikes: 2008 96" Fat Boy TC
Location: Lynbrook, New York
Been thanked: 88 times
Contact:

Re: Help me please...

#2

Post by kitabel » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:02 pm

The chassis number is fake - they don't have chassis numbers until 1970. Someone other than Harley-Davidson stamped that into the frame tube.
records of Harley-Davidson where you can order the history of the motorcycle
No such thing.

laipappy
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:44 am
Bikes: 58 Panhead bobber
Location: Hawaii

Re: Help me please...

#3

Post by laipappy » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:32 pm

The chassis number is not only fake but looks very poorly done as well. If you bought this bike you would want to grind them down and fill them in with body filler.

51Hog
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 7:29 pm
Bikes: 1951 Fl
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Help me please...

#4

Post by 51Hog » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:51 pm

There appears to be very little that is original on the bike.
Is it titled as a 54, or something else.
They do things in Europe a lot different than they do over here.
If that number was put on the frame in Germany, and there are papers that go with it, than it may very well be a good EUROPEAN number.
Podras importar la moto a Espana ya amolgado, para poder matricularla sin problemas?

jibhead
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:43 pm
Bikes: 43 wlc ,1990 xl1200 ,73 shovel
Location: devon england
Has thanked: 2 times

Re: Help me please...

#5

Post by jibhead » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:52 pm

laipappy wrote:The chassis number is not only fake but looks very poorly done as well. If you bought this bike you would want to grind them down and fill them in with body filler.
grind down and fill with weld more like ,then after regrinding they will have disappeared never to return and bite you in the arse with what looks like a frame with a number job

DuoGlide62
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:21 am
Bikes: 1962 FL
Location: Chicago, Ill.
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: Help me please...

#6

Post by DuoGlide62 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:55 pm

If I were you I'd do some homework learning the ins & outs of importing a vehicle
from Germany to Spain. Maybe the German DMV stamped the frame.

jibhead
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:43 pm
Bikes: 43 wlc ,1990 xl1200 ,73 shovel
Location: devon england
Has thanked: 2 times

Re: Help me please...

#7

Post by jibhead » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:06 pm

i back up that about it having good papers with those numbers on , in europe etc. as two years ago i had to retax my 45 and went to the divisional vehical licence center , as the mot certificate had' no number found' in the frame number section ,they were going to try and make me reregister my bike, so i explained the prior to 1971 harleys didnt have vin or frame numbers, they all went on the engine number, and my bike had been registered in england with that number plate since 1947 when it was demobbed.

in the end they saw reason and issued me with a form to go and get a number stamped on the frame and the form signed. the number they had given me to get stamped was my engine number ,so now they are matching.

i went off stamped the number myself ,signed the paper work, returned and got my road tax.!

socalrider
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:22 am
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Help me please...

#8

Post by socalrider » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:12 pm

looks like the vln #s were welded on to the case.
parese que los numeros de indification en el motor son falsos.seve como que estan soldados.investigalo bien
suerte
arnulfo de los angeles

wyskay
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:59 pm
Bikes: Harley-Davidson Roadking twincam
HD. FL 53 Panhead
Location: Spain
Has thanked: 2 times

Re: Help me please...

#9

Post by wyskay » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:34 pm

Thank you all for your help, after researching I have reached the following conclusion:
"The bike is legally registered in Germany and the German TÃœV do not lie ... ever!
"It strikes me that the guard was broken and is a remanufactured to have put the number above.
"In Europe if the chassis number is not, forcing record this number in the chassis. Please note that in Europe the identification of a motorcycle is the chassis.
I imagine there must be more engine parts that have serial numbers that guarantee the veracity of this engine. Does anyone know what they are?.
http://knuckleworks.com/ph48.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In the picture you can see a guard with no serial number

What strikes me is the distance between the serial number and the upper screw housing:
http://yfrog.com/49iphon1034j" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?p=22782" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Arnulfo: Gracias por la traducción, si necesitas algo desde España cuenta conmigo.
Regards
Wys

Bigincher
Posts: 2817
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:10 pm
Bikes: 1941/59 EL
1952 FL
1977 FLH
1994 Fatboy
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 101 times

Re: Help me please...

#10

Post by Bigincher » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:16 am

Knuckleworks is very honest and reputable, and casts replacement knucklehead and now also panhead cases which are very exacting copies of the originals. That's why there's no numbers stamped in them; it's up to the buyer to comply with the laws of his own State when assembling a motorcycle with these cases. It's really not much different than years ago when you could buy 'replacement cases' from Harley-Davidson.

kitabel
Posts: 882
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:10 pm
Bikes: 2008 96" Fat Boy TC
Location: Lynbrook, New York
Been thanked: 88 times
Contact:

Re: Help me please...

#11

Post by kitabel » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:02 am

I imagine there must be more engine parts that have serial numbers that guarantee the veracity of this engine

No, there aren't.

Speeding Big Twin
Posts: 928
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:29 am
Bikes: H-D
Location: Western Australia
Been thanked: 73 times

Re: Help me please...

#12

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:19 am

Welcome to the forum, Daniel. As indicated above, that engine serial number wasn't stamped at the Harley factory and some of the characters aren't the usual types for a 1954 Panhead serial number. You said: "What strikes me is the distance between the serial number and the upper screw housing." And I've posted your photo below along with a 54 example to further illustrate the differences in that area:

Image

Image

Also as mentioned, there aren't more engine parts that have serial numbers. And I figure you read everything about crankcase numbers (aka belly numbers) via the link you posted (view topic).

The chassis (frame) number is interesting because it begins with 53 instead of 54. Is that 53 chassis number on the registration paper(s)? If it is then that would mean in Europe the bike is identified as a 1953 model, according to what you said in your last post.

Some Harley frames were numbered on the top tube around 1916-1927 but they didn't have frame numbers in any position for 1953. One problem is that it looks like 53FL42962 and that number would never even have been used on an engine because it's too high for 1953 production figures. There COULD have been a bike with engine serial number 53FL4296 so 'm wondering why that frame was stamped with what could have been a legitimate 1953 engine number but with an extra character (2) at the end of it. The bike may well be legally registered in Germany with that frame number but I'd be asking why the frame has a number beginning with 53 instead of 54. And why wasn't the frame assigned a more credible number overall?

Also, I'm not convinced the steering head is original to the rest of the frame. All genuine H-D Panhead frames originally had a steering head lock but that frame doesn't appear to have one. Instead it appears to only have an undrilled/unmachined lock boss. It's possible the lock was removed and then the open boss covered over but it's also possible the steering head is from a 1969 or later frame. And that could mean it's also been altered in other ways. Or it could be aftermarket.

Anyway, I'd recommend you search for another bike. A much better one will turn up sooner or later. 8) Eric

partshunt
Panhead Register Member
Posts: 305
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:04 am
Location: "Big Timber Country" Western Canada
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Help me please...

#13

Post by partshunt » Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:00 am

[quote="socalrider"]looks like the vln #s were welded on to the case.
parese que los numeros de indification en el motor son falsos.seve como que estan soldados.investigalo bien
suerte
arnulfo de los angeles[/quote]
I agree on the Eng number. Looks like the whole number plate was made up and scabbed over the original number pad. Also, I think the "9" should be a straight back nine...Joe

Speeding Big Twin
Posts: 928
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:29 am
Bikes: H-D
Location: Western Australia
Been thanked: 73 times

Re: Help me please...

#14

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:04 am

Joe, yeah, all is not normal with the location of that number boss. And regarding the serial number characters, apart from the 9 not being the usual type for 1954 you'll also notice the 4 and 2 are not the usual types for that year when compared with those shown in 54FL2++9. And the 1s appear strange because although the bottom serif extends a reasonable distance to the left-hand side of the vertical stroke it doesn't appear to extend the same amount to the right-hand side. As for the 5, I'd like a better photo. Eric

wyskay
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:59 pm
Bikes: Harley-Davidson Roadking twincam
HD. FL 53 Panhead
Location: Spain
Has thanked: 2 times

Re: Help me please...

#15

Post by wyskay » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:16 am

Well, Here in Europe, the most important for the authorities is the frame number, and this number, is in the German title. Then the engine number it's not important to homologate the bike here in Spain, becouse the authorities didn't look for this number. They only are looking the frame number...
The Frame is't correct becouse there is not possible this code for one model of 1953 HD, but the German authorities give the OK at this frame and the complete bike then.
Anybody can to explain me how is possible that the German authorities gave plate and incorrect Harley- Davidson bike?
Regards
Wys

Post Reply

Return to “Identification”