Eric - Legend verification

Information on the identification and numbering of frame, motor belly, transmission and other parts
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1950Panhead
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Eric - Legend verification

#1

Post by 1950Panhead » Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:16 pm

Therefore EVERY piece of info on pages 199 and later has to come under scrutiny.
OK, lets scrutinize. I have listed 40's vin ranges from Legend numbers. Examples beyond Legend? Legend exagerates? (no examples near limit).

40W1000 to 40W3771 (G,W series)
40EL1000 to 40EL5068
40U1000 to 40U4619

41W1000 to 41W16288 (G,W, W45, WLA, WLC)
41EL1000 to 41EL6148 (E,F series)
41U1000 to 41U5144

42W1000 to 42W24995 (all 45", use belly #'s to verify)
42EL1000 to 42EL2742 (E,F series)
42U1000 to 42U2803

43W1000 to 43W28498 (all 45", use belly #'s to verify)
43EL1000 to 43EL1202 (E,F series)
43U1000 to 43U2807

44W1000 to 44W18000 (all 45", use belly #'s to verify)
44EL1000 to 44EL1534 (E,F series)
44U1000 to 44U2151

45W1000 to 45W10759 (all 45", use belly #'s to verify)
45EL1000 to 45EL1829 (E,F series)
45U1000 to 45U2284

46W1000 to 46W6953 (G,W series)
46EL1000 to 46EL7745 (E,F series)
46U1000 to 46U4521

47W1000 to 47W6534 (G,W series)
47EL1000 to 47EL12647 (E,F series)
47U1000 to 47U3931

48W1000 to 48W3283 (G,W series)
48EL1000 to 48EL13743 (E,F series)
48U1000 to 48U3376
48S1000 to 48S11116

49W1000 to 49W4884 (G,W series)
49EL1000 to 49EL13684 (E,F series)
49S1000 to 49S8290
It’s also interesting to note that my 37, 47, 49 and 51 examples are all less than 30 numbers higher than Legend calculations. But the 42 BT Flathead is higher than Legend by hundreds. I think all we can do with Legend is continue to advise people that its figures are not to be taken as totally accurate.



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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#2

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:19 am

1950Panhead wrote:
Therefore EVERY piece of info on pages 199 and later has to come under scrutiny.
OK, lets scrutinize. I have listed 40's vin ranges from Legend numbers. Examples beyond Legend? Legend exagerates? (no examples near limit).

40W1000 to 40W3771 (G,W series)
40EL1000 to 40EL5068
40U1000 to 40U4619

41W1000 to 41W16288 (G,W, W45, WLA, WLC)
41EL1000 to 41EL6148 (E,F series)
41U1000 to 41U5144

42W1000 to 42W24995 (all 45", use belly #'s to verify)
42EL1000 to 42EL2742 (E,F series)
42U1000 to 42U2803

43W1000 to 43W28498 (all 45", use belly #'s to verify)
43EL1000 to 43EL1202 (E,F series)
43U1000 to 43U2807

44W1000 to 44W18000 (all 45", use belly #'s to verify)
44EL1000 to 44EL1534 (E,F series)
44U1000 to 44U2151

45W1000 to 45W10759 (all 45", use belly #'s to verify)
45EL1000 to 45EL1829 (E,F series)
45U1000 to 45U2284

46W1000 to 46W6953 (G,W series)
46EL1000 to 46EL7745 (E,F series)
46U1000 to 46U4521

47W1000 to 47W6534 (G,W series)
47EL1000 to 47EL12647 (E,F series)
47U1000 to 47U3931

48W1000 to 48W3283 (G,W series)
48EL1000 to 48EL13743 (E,F series)
48U1000 to 48U3376
48S1000 to 48S11116

49W1000 to 49W4884 (G,W series)
49EL1000 to 49EL13684 (E,F series)
49S1000 to 49S8290
It's also interesting to note that my 37, 47, 49 and 51 examples are all less than 30 numbers higher than Legend calculations. But the 42 BT Flathead is higher than Legend by hundreds. I think all we can do with Legend is continue to advise people that its figures are not to be taken as totally accurate.
No examples near limit? Why not?

As I've mentioned before, Legend says its own info for production figures and model descriptions on pages 199 and later is not to be regarded as totally accurate. The H-D employee charged with calculating figures couldn't remember which way the numbers were counted. Furthermore, said employee apparently made it clear that some records were missing but we don't know which ones. Legend even states there is some possible duplication of figures for WWII years and we see that in 1942 for example: 13,051 and 13,460 for WLAs in 1942 figures. Which amount is true? Is either figure accurate? So, what do we have? We have an incomplete set of figures and the company that sold them to us tells us not to regard them as totally accurate.

Anyway, I have gone through the 40s.

Legend includes 439 Ws and 202 WSs in its figures for 1940 but I don't see either model on the 1940 order blank in the book. Legend also has figures for both those models for 1939 yet I don't see them on the 39 order blank. Were the W and WS available as 1940 models?

My highest factory examples stamped 40:
G-series: 40G32++. For G/W your number above is 3771, meaning you're looking for G/W examples higher than that. So you've included the W and WS?
W-series: 40WLD33++
E-series: 40EL5054. It's the 41EL prototype, Palmer page 554. The SN in the book is correct (I have photo).
U-series: 40U40++

I know of no WLC stamped 41 yet Legend figures for 1941 include two separate amounts for the WLC. Legend mention of WLCs for 41 may be due to the way H-D calculated production so they may in fact be 1942 models.

My highest factory examples stamped 41:
G-series: 41G94++
W-series: 41WLDR95++
E-series: 41EL56++
F-series: 41FL61++. Other characters unknown. It's a long-rib case and the photo was posted on CAI by Palmer. I don't know if he knows the other characters.
U-series: 41UL5+++. Other characters unknown.

More to follow. Eric

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#3

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:53 am

For 1942 Legend has two amounts of WLAs and two amounts of WLCs. It looks like you've incorporated the larger amounts of each model into your overall total.

My highest factory examples stamped 42 (for WLAs this obviously means stamped 42 in 1942, not WLAs stamped 42 in 1943-45):
G-series: None.
W-series: 42WLA268++ has belly number (BN) 42-283++. Your number above for W/G is 24995. You wanted BNs as verification of certain SNs but I don't have BNs for every SN.
E-series: 42EL23++
F-series: 42F22++
U-series: 42U36++. Your number above is 2803.

My highest factory examples stamped 43:
G-series: 43G3+++ (photo posted in other thread). BN is 43-28+++
W-series: 43WLC86++ has BN unknown. A higher SN appears to show 43WLC90++ but has BN unknown. BNs for my six 43WLCs lower than 43WLC86++ are also unknown.
E-series: 43E11++
F-series: None. (Apart from factory prototype 43FC1+++, of course.)
U-series: None showing any sequence characters. (The only photo I have is 43U and I kept it partly because it shows an open top 4.)

I know of no WLC stamped 44 yet Legend indicates 5,356 WLCs for that year. If any WLCs were made in 44 then I suspect they were 1943 models.

My highest factory examples stamped 44:
G-series: None.
W-series: 44WL10++ has BN unknown. I have no other W-series stamped 44.
E-series: 44E16++. Your number above for E/F is 1534.
F-series: None.
U-series: 44UL20++

My highest factory examples stamped 45:
G-series: None.
W-series: 45WL1+++ has 45-16+++. 45WL18++ is the highest of my four W-series but has BN unknown as do the other two.
E-series: 45EL2+++. Other characters unknown. Your number above for E/F is 1829. How did you get 1829?
F-series: 45FL2+++. Other characters unknown.
U-series: 45UL20++

More to follow. Eric

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#4

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:11 am

My highest factory examples stamped 46:
G-series: 46G59++
W-series: 46WL45++. (A blurry photo appears to show 46WL69++ but it's lower than you're looking for.)
E-series: 46E72++
F-series: 46FL76++
U-series: 46UL41++

My highest factory examples stamped 47:
G-series: 47G45++
W-series: 47WL49++
E-series: 47EL126++ is higher than your E/F number 12647. (And my example isn't the 47EL126++ at the Harley museum.)
F-series: 47FL118++
U-series: 47UL38++ (Other photos appear to show two ULs in the 3900s but not all the characters are clear and both examples are lower than you're looking for.)

My highest factory examples stamped 48:
G-series: 48G46++. Your number above for G/W is 3283. How did you get 3283?
W-series: 48WL51++
E-series: 48EL135++. Your number above for E/F is 13743. How did you get 13743?
F-series: 48FL138++
U-series: 48UL30++
S-series: 48S100++

My highest factory examples stamped 49:
G-series: 49G48++ is higher than your G/W number 4884 but obviously not by much.
W-series: 49WL46++
E-series: 49EL125++
F-series: 49F137++ is higher than your F/E number 13684 but by less than thirty.
S-series: 49S48++
Eric

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#5

Post by john HD » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:52 am

guys,

i don't see much mention of F models for 1945.

i have had in my garage 45F1945 from time to time. nice clean unaltered numbers.

john

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#6

Post by kitabel » Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:28 pm

Not sure I understand the interest here.
The source admits inaccuracies + there are no original records or witnesses available = complete answer impossible.
The legitimacy of a specific VIN still depends on physical conditions, not "is it listed on my milk carton".

1950Panhead
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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#7

Post by 1950Panhead » Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:40 pm

40W1000 to 40W3771 ok 40WLD33++ (G,W series)
40EL1000 to 40EL5068 ok 40EL5054
40U1000 to 40U4619 (Legend high?) 40U40++
Eric, 2771 is the sum of the nine models, models not on order forms may have been built on request (from police departments)

41W1000 to 41W16288 (Legend high?) 41WLDR95++ (G,W, W45, WLA, WLC)
41EL1000 to 41EL6148 ok 41FL61++ (E,F series)
41U1000 to 41U5144 ok 41UL5+++

42W1000 to 42W24995 (Legend low by 1800) 42WLA268++ (all 45", use belly #'s to verify)
42EL1000 to 42EL2742 ok 42EL23++ (E,F series)
42U1000 to 42U2803 (Legend low by 800) 42U36++.

43W1000 to 43W28498 (Need more data) 43WLC90++ (all 45", use belly #'s to verify)
43EL1000 to 43EL1202 ok 43E11++ (E,F series)
43U1000 to 43U2807 (Need data)

44W1000 to 44W18000 (Need more data) 44WL10++ all 45", use belly #'s to verify)
44EL1000 to 44EL1534 (Legend low by 100) 44E16++ (E,F series)
44U1000 to 44U2151 ok 44UL20++

45W1000 to 45W10759 (Need more data) 45WL18++ (all 45", use belly #'s to verify)
45EL1000 to 45EL2309 ok 45EL2+++ (E,F series)
45U1000 to 45U2284 ok 45UL20++
Eric, I corrected E,F total

46W1000 to 46W6953 ok 46WL69++ (G,W series)
46EL1000 to 46EL7745 ok 46FL76++ (E,F series)
46U1000 to 46U4521 ok 46UL41++

47W1000 to 47W6534 (Legend high?) 47WL49++ (G,W series)
47EL1000 to 47EL12647 ok? 47EL126++ (E,F series)
47U1000 to 47U3931 ok 47UL38++
Eric, 47EL126++ > 47EL12647 ?

48W1000 to 48W5193 ok 48WL51++ (G,W series)
48EL1000 to 48EL13923 ok 48FL138++ (E,F series)
48U1000 to 48U3376 ok 48UL30++
48S1000 to 48S11116 (Legend high?) 48S100++
Eric, totals corrected

49W1000 to 49W4884 (Legend low by 10?) 49G48++ (G,W series)
49EL1000 to 49EL13684 (Legend low by 30) 49F137++ (E,F series)
49S1000 to 49S8290 (Legend high?) 49S48++

John, The 41-49 E,EL,F,FL models are in one vin series.
Kitabel, Trying to figure out if Legend is close or way off.

Jerry

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#8

Post by Kurt » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:02 pm

I have a set of 42G24XXX cases

Belly #'s: 42-264xx

Kurt

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#9

Post by DaveAus » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:37 am

Eric,

As you probably know I have a specific interest in 44WL's

The Legend states 57 1944 WL's however my engine number is 1066 and I know someone who has a number in the mid 70's which I've seen

I have also been told about a number in the high 120's however I've never actually seen the number to varify it.

My belly number is 44-21236

Cheers
Dave

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#10

Post by 1950Panhead » Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:12 pm

Dave,
Thanks for the post. Have you (or anyone) seen high belly numbers for 42-45?

44W1000 to 44W18000 (Legend low by 3236 or more) 44-21236
44EL1000 to 44EL1534 (Legend low by 100) 44E16++ (E,F series)
44U1000 to 44U2151 (Legend correct) 44UL20++

Jerry

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#11

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:42 pm

john HD wrote:guys,

i don't see much mention of F models for 1945.

i have had in my garage 45F1945 from time to time. nice clean unaltered numbers.

john
That's a cool number, John, having the sequence portion match the year, so to speak. As I mentioned above, the highest factory example I have of an F-series (F or FL) for 1945 is 45FL2+++. I've got a photo of 45F12++ but it isn't a close-up and I'm not sure about a few things in the picture. It may even be a factory, or dealer, correction but I can't tell from the photo.

For the 1945 Model E, as opposed to the EL, there's one on page 568 of Palmer. Chris posted a factory photo of it somewhere a while back so I saved it and I think the serial number in the book is correct. Eric

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#12

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:19 pm

[quote="1950Panhead"]Eric, 2771 is the sum of the nine models, models not on order forms may have been built on request (from police departments)'

I know the figure you're using covers nine models. And I know order blanks sometimes don't include all available machines. But the question I asked was: Were the W and WS available as 1940 models? Legend figures are 439 and 202 respectively so if they made that many of what I'd consider regular machines then why aren't they on the order blank? Did they make them for 1940? How do we include two models when we don't even know if they were made that year?

Quote: '... 41W16288 (Legend high?)'
Legend includes WLCs in 1941 figures but I know of no WLCs stamped 41. So what are those WLCs in 41 for Legend? They are probably 1942 models and therefore they would be stamped 42. But you're treating machines in 1941 figures as if they were all stamped 41. Some won't be stamped 41; some will be stamped 42. But they were MADE in 41 so they're in Legend's 1941 figures. My highest W/G stamped 41 is 95++. But the 16288 total probably includes some machines that are stamped 42.

On the other hand sometimes my examples run higher than Legend so it appears that not all years were calculated in the same manner as each other. Some Legend figures aren't complete and the ones it contains weren't checked by H-D.

Quote: '... 44W18000 (Need more data)'
Need more data? It seems you're looking for a 44-stamped serial number in the W-series or G-series that's 18000 or higher. What makes you think such a number exists? WLAs made in 1944 were stamped 42. And if any WLCs were made in 44 then I think they were stamped 43 because I know of no WLCs stamped 44. According to Legend that leaves 57 WLs, six Gs and 51 GAs. So what makes you think numbers in the W/G family that are stamped 44 would run as high as 18000?

Quote: '... 45W10759 (Need more data)'
Need more data? Similar scenario to 1944. Legend records 8,317 WLAs for 1945. But they were stamped 42; they weren't stamped 45. According to Legend that leaves 1,357 WLs, 26 Gs and 60 GAs.

Quote: '... 45EL2309 ok ... (E,F series) Eric, I corrected E,F total'
Jerry, how did you get 2309?

Quote: '47EL1000 to 47EL12647 ok? 47EL126++ (E,F series) Eric, 47EL126++ > 47EL12647 ?'
No, my 47EL126++ isn't 47EL12647. Here's what I posted above: 47EL126++ is higher than your E/F number 12647. (And my example isn't the 47EL126++ at the Harley museum.) Eric

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#13

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:21 pm

Kurt wrote:I have a set of 42G24XXX cases

Belly #'s: 42-264xx

Kurt
Thanks for the info, Kurt. Eric

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#14

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:29 pm

DaveAus wrote:Eric,

As you probably know I have a specific interest in 44WL's

The Legend states 57 1944 WL's however my engine number is 1066 and I know someone who has a number in the mid 70's which I've seen

I have also been told about a number in the high 120's however I've never actually seen the number to varify it.

My belly number is 44-21236

Cheers
Dave
Thanks for the belly number, Dave. Your WL is the one I referred to above as 44WL10++. One reason your serial number is higher than Legend's figure is because the WLs (civilian) were mixed in with the Servi-Cars. And the number you've been told about in the high-120s is a possibility because we can't trust Legend.

Did you receive the article I emailed you recently about a UMG? Eric

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#15

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:36 pm

kitabel wrote:Not sure I understand the interest here.
The source admits inaccuracies + there are no original records or witnesses available = complete answer impossible.
The legitimacy of a specific VIN still depends on physical conditions, not "is it listed on my milk carton".
I know the source admits inaccuracies; I've said it several times before. I even stated above that the H-D employee charged with calculating figures couldn't remember which way the numbers were counted. And said employee apparently made it clear that some records were missing. Therefore I know that a complete answer is impossible.

I have no examples of serial numbers on milk cartons but I hasten to add that I am not saying it never happened. However, I think the possibility is unlikely because the stamps used by Harley would damage said cartons so much that they wouldn't pass inspection.

What I do have, though, is an example of a 49FL serial number on the inside of a gear cover. But said cover was one of several four-rib styles used by Harley so I realised immediately that something was not right because even the earliest of the four-rib covers wasn't originally used for a 1949 model. And upon closer inspection my suspicions were confirmed because the characters were not the usual factory types for a 49 Pan so I made sure not to use that number in my research. 8) Eric

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