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Eric - Legend verification

Information on the identification and numbering of frame, motor belly, transmission and other parts
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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#16

Post by DaveAus » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:17 am

Hi Eric,

No I didnt receive the article but would love to. Was it via post or email?

While Im here, the number for my 45 UL is 45UL1490. I havent looked at the belly numbers in ages but I will over the next few days.

Cheers
Dave



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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#17

Post by 1950Panhead » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:37 pm

I know the figure you're using covers nine models. And I know order blanks sometimes don't include all available machines.
But the question I asked was: Were the W and WS available as 1940 models? Legend figures are 439 and 202 respectively so if they made that many of what I'd consider regular machines then why aren't they on the order blank? Did they make them for 1940? How do we include two models when we don't even know if they were made that year?
The numbers are small enough they could have been requested by police departments and never appeared on order forms.
If anyone has seen a 40W engine please speak up.
Legend includes WLCs in 1941 figures but I know of no WLCs stamped 41. So what are those WLCs in 41 for Legend?
They are probably 1942 models and therefore they would be stamped 42. But you're treating machines in 1941 figures as if they were all stamped 41. Some won't be stamped 41; some will be stamped 42. But they were MADE in 41 so they're in Legend's 1941 figures. My highest W/G stamped 41 is 95++. But the 16288 total probably includes some machines that are stamped 42.
The 149 WLC's were probably sent to Canada for testing. Destroyed? Sent to Europe? Who knows.
Need more data? It seems you'e looking for a 44-stamped serial number in the W-series or G-series that's 18000 or higher.
What makes you think such a number exists? WLAs made in 1944 were stamped 42. And if any WLCs were made in 44 then I think they were stamped 43 because I know of no WLCs stamped 44. According to Legend that leaves 57 WLs, six Gs and 51 GAs. So what makes you think numbers in the W/G family that are stamped 44 would run as high as 18000?
I am and Dave provided an example that shot past Legend.
Correction
45W1000 to 45W10759 (Need more data) 45WL18++ (all 45", use belly #'s to verify)
45EL1000 to 45EL2429 (Legend correct) 45EL2+++ (E,F series)
45U1000 to 45U2284 (Legend correct) 45UL20++

You posted partial vin's, I have to estimate Legend overshoot. You can post updates.

WLA's resting afer the war
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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#18

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:17 am

Hi Eric,

No I didnt receive the article but would love to. Was it via post or email?
I sent it via two emails but they must have gone astray so I sent them again earlier today. Email me if you don't receive them and I'll then try via a reply to your email and maybe that will do the trick. Eric

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#19

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:57 am

1950Panhead wrote: 'The numbers are small enough they could have been requested by police departments and never appeared on order forms.'
But if small amounts of those two W-series models are the reason they're not on the 1940 order blank then why doesn't that thinking seem to apply to the 1940 GA, GD and GDT? All three of those Servi-Car models are on the 1940 order blank and Legend figures for them are 156, 158 and 126 respectively yet all three of those figures are lower than Legend figures for the 1940 W and WS.
'The 149 WLC's were probably sent to Canada for testing. Destroyed? Sent to Europe? Who knows.'
In Palmer's 193-52 military book he mentions that the first 400 42WLCs were produced and delivered in 1941 and he says they were counted in H-D's 1941 fiscal year production. He says they did not have 1941 serial numbers, instead they had 1942 serial numbers. He further states: 'No WLC models were ever produced as 1941 models ...'

At this point I'll clarify my situation regarding Palmer's two publications. I've been critical at times of some of the info in both of his books and with good reason, because my own research proves there are problems with some of said info. However, in certain situations I do agree with Palmer and this is one of them, partly because I have seen no evidence anywhere that even suggests there were WLCs made as 1941 models. So I agree with Palmer on this occasion.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I know of no WLCs stamped 41. The ones in Legend are probably 1942 models and therefore they would be stamped 42.

And 149 isn't the only WLC figure in Legend for 1941. For that year Legend also has a second WLC figure: 205. But you didn't explain what you think happened to them. Do you think the 205 probably went to Canada for testing too? I don't.

Regarding the 1000-18000 W/G range for 1944, the reason I commented on that is because someone reading this thread at a later date is going to think you were looking for a 1944 W/G serial number of 18000 or higher due to the way you posted that range. Because it looks like a serial number range. I realise you're trying to determine 1944 production by using 44 belly numbers. And as you mentioned, Dave's BN has shot past Legend.
'45W1000 to 45W10759 (Need more data)'
I've got four 42WLA examples with 1945 belly numbers that may be of help:
42WLA684++ has 45-116++
42WLA689++ has 45-125++
42WLA691++ has 45-127++
42WLA697++ has 45-145++
: '45EL1000 to 45EL2429 (Legend correct) 45EL2+++ (E,F series)'
Yes, 2429 is the figure I calculated for E/F. As I mentioned above, the other characters for my example 45EL2+++ are unknown. They were blacked out before I got the photo. For my example 45FL2+++ the shifter rod was in the way of the other characters.
: '... I have to estimate ...'
Estimating can be tricky business sometimes. And that particular E-word reminds me of a certain police officer who thought he could accurately estimate the velocity of a certain Big Twin that was allegedly Speeding. And so he booked me accordingly. However, said officer did not fare well in court, especially during my cross-examination regarding his alleged evidence. The magistrate dismissed the charge. 8) 8) 8) Eric

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#20

Post by 1950Panhead » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:09 pm

But if small amounts of those two W-series models are the reason they're not on the 1940 order blank then why
doesn't that thinking seem to apply to the 1940 GA, GD and GDT? All three of those Servi-Car models are on the 1940 order
blank and Legend figures for them are 156, 158 and 126 respectively yet all three of those figures are lower than Legend
figures for the 1940 W and WS.
GA,GD, GDT are regular production models and appear on the order forms. W and WS were made on request and don't appear
on order forms, that is the difference.

In Palmer's 1932-52 military book he mentions that the first 400 42WLCs were produced and delivered in 1941 and he
says they were counted in H-D's 1941 fiscal year production. He says they did not have 1941 serial numbers, instead they
had 1942 serial numbers. He further states: 'No WLC models were ever produced as 1941 models ... At this point I'll clarify
my situation regarding Palmer's two publications. I've been critical at times of some of the info in both of his books and
with good reason, because my own research proves there are problems with some of said info. However, in certain situations
I do agree with Palmer and this is one of them, partly because I have seen no evidence anywhere that even suggests there
were WLCs made as 1941 models. So I agree with Palmer on this occasion. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I know of no
WLCs stamped 41. The ones in Legend are probably 1942 models and therefore they would be stamped 42. And 149 isn't the only
WLC figure in Legend for 1941. For that year Legend also has a second WLC figure: 205. But you didn't explain what you think
happened to them. Do you think the 205 probably went to Canada for testing too? I don't.
Hatfield says "The factory in house raw materials were near depletion as the last of the 1941 models were being processed.
Meanwhile the government controlled distribution system allowed just enough steel and aluminum to reach Harley Davidson so
that production of the WLC models could proceed for the Canadian army." So Legend and Hatfield support WLC models with 41 vin.
The numbers were small and they may have all been destroyed so we may never see a 41WLC vin.
42WLC Aug 1941 to Nov 1941 42WLC1000 to 42WLC4800 3800 41-1-2200 to 41-1-6200 (from Palmer)
3800/4 = 950 41WLC and 2850 42WLC (made in 41) if production was evenly split Aug to Nov but it probably was not.
The 41 and 42 army production numbers appear to be subsets (part of) main production, this may mean something but I don't know what yet.

I've got four 42WLA examples with 1945 belly numbers that may be of help:
42WLA684++ has 45-116++
42WLA689++ has 45-125++
42WLA691++ has 45-127++
42WLA697++ has 45-145++
I found 45-16728 and am still searching 42-45 for higher numbers.
45W1000 to 45W10759 (Legend low by 5969 or more) 45-16728
45EL1000 to 45EL2429 (Legend correct) 45EL2+++ (E,F series)
45U1000 to 45U2284 (Legend correct) 45UL20++

of a certain Big Twin that was allegedly Speeding...
You were speeding on your big twin? No, say it isn't so.

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#21

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:14 am

[quote="1950Panhead"][quote] 'GA,GD, GDT are regular production models and appear on the order forms. W and WS were made on request and don't appear on order forms, that is the difference.'
You say the W and WS were made on request. But you didn't state how you know that? Where is that info from?

Quote: 'Hatfield says "The factory in house raw materials were near depletion as the last of the 1941 models were being processed. Meanwhile the government controlled distribution system allowed just enough steel and aluminum to reach Harley Davidson so that production of the WLC models could proceed for the Canadian army."'
What Hatfield publication is your quote from? And what year was it published? It seems to me that your quote from Hatfield could be taken in either of two ways: it could be taken as him indicating that some WLCs were built in the group of machines he refers to as the last of the 1941 models; or, when he says production of the WLC models could proceed, what he may have meant was that no WLCs had been built prior to just enough material reaching H-D.

Quote: 'So Legend and Hatfield support WLC models with 41 vin.'
You don't know that Legend supports WLC models with 41 VIN. And the reason is because you don't know how Legend figures were calculated. You don't know WLCs in Legend's 1941 figures had a 41 VIN.
Hatfield supports WLC models with 41 VIN? Does he really? The Hatfield book I have is called Inside Harley-Davidson and it was first published in 1990. Page 202 has a photo of what is said to be a 1941 WLC although I can't read the serial number. But is it really a 41 model? Or does he call it that because it was made in 41? Hatfield appears to clarify his own situation regarding WLCs as per the info below which I scanned from pages 203-204:
Page203-1.jpg
Page204-1.jpg
Notice Hatfield states that in 1941 substantial numbers of the Model WLC were contracted for Canadian armed forces but were designated as 1942 WLCs. So is that one bike in his photo stamped 41? Or is he just referring to it as a 41 but in reality it's stamped 42? Even IF that one bike was stamped 41 then that's a long way from the totals for WLCs that year in Legend figures: 149 and 205.

Quote: 'Aug 1941 to Nov 1941 42WLC1000 to 42WLC4800 3800 41-1-2200 to 41-1-6200 (from Palmer)
3800/4 = 950 41WLC and 2850 42WLC (made in 41) if production was evenly split Aug to Nov but it probably was not.'
I see you're persisting in misrepresenting some of Palmer's ranges and that doesn't help any readers on this forum who are trying to learn something. Palmer doesn't say 42WLC1000 to 42WLC4800; he says 42xxx1000 to 42xxx4800. And after you referred to them all as 42s you then called 950 of them 41s. So again one of your descriptions doesn't help any forum readers who are trying to learn. And in the batch of 3801 (not 3800) machines, the group of 950 weren't stamped 41 so why are you referring to them as 41WLCs? Yes, they were built in 1941; but they were not stamped as 41WLCs. Instead they were stamped as 42WLCs. In his military book Palmer refers to the first 400 42WLCs as being produced and delivered in 1941, saying they were counted in H-D's 1941 fiscal year production. He says they did not have 1941 serial numbers, instead they had 1942 serial numbers. He further states: 'No WLC models were ever produced as 1941 models ...'

You don't know whether or not your whole estimated 950 were WLCs, regardless of year. Your estimated batch of 950 machines could include some that were not WLCs. In the batch of 3801 machines Palmer says that 3,290 were 42WLCs and the rest consisted of 42WLAs and nonmilitary models. So you don't know that your estimated 950 were all WLCs; some could have been WLAs and some could have been nonmilitary models.

Quote: 'You were speeding on your big twin? No, say it isn't so.'
One reason I mentioned that incident "which is a true story that involved more than just the charge and its subsequent dismissal"was to highlight the risk(s) involved with estimating. 8) Eric
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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#22

Post by 1950Panhead » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:11 pm

Eric,
You say the W and WS were made on request. But you didn't state how you know that? Where is that info from?
From Legend. 38E and 39E are not on order forms but they exist. Have you seen 38W and 39W engines? Same situation.
Enough were made that I think one will turn up.

You don't know that Legend supports WLC models with 41 VIN.
Palmer says "a production year at the time was September 1 through August 31", page 9.
Hatfield says "The factory in house raw materials were near depletion as the last of the 1941 models were being processed.
Meanwhile the government controlled distribution system allowed just enough steel and aluminum to reach Harley Davidson so
that production of the WLC models could proceed for the Canadian army." The key here is "last of the 1941 models",
Harley Davidson flatheads, page 88, 1999.
These two items form my opinion, I also think it likely they were destroyed so we may never see a 41WLC engine.
I also think Legend is reporting model year (Sep-Aug), which is more evidence, you have brought this up several times, I will
explain after I finish updating the 42-45 tables, I have not exhausted all leads yet.

Jerry

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#23

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:35 am

1950Panhead wrote:Eric,
38E and 39E are not on order forms but they exist.'
I know the 38E and 39E are not on the order blanks. But perhaps you missed my point. First, regarding the 1940 W and WS, you said: 'W and WS were made on request and don't appear on order forms, that is the difference.' But now you say: 'Enough were made that I think one will turn up.' Do you see the difference between your two statements? The first one sounds definite. But not the second one. That is the difference.
'Have you seen 38W and 39W engines?'
No. I have one photo that shows 38W and then just the last sequence character so I don't know if there are any letters after the W or not. All my W-series examples for 1939 and later show at least two model letters. And it's interesting to note that for 1937 I have seven examples that clearly show the W is the only letter in their serial number. But I'm not jumping to any conclusions about 1937. 8)

Regarding Hatfield, as I indicated earlier the way he refers to certain machines may be misleading and he appears to do a similar thing with XAs. He has a couple of photos of what is said to be a 41XA and in the general text he says that by November 1941 four pilot models were completed. He even has a specifications box in the text in which he refers to one by year and model: 1941 XA. But was the XA in his photos stamped with a 41 serial number? Or was he just calling it a 41 because it was made that year?

Legend has no figures for a 41XA, although it does have two amounts for the 42XA. 8) Incidentally, both of those two Legend amounts for the 42XA are lower than the amount indicated by Palmer. Eric

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#24

Post by 1950Panhead » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:01 pm

Eric,
I tend to believe Legend, Palmer and Hatfield are true even though I know all of them have errors. The vast majority of the information is correct. Do you think 40W engines exist or don't exist and explain why. How many 37,38,39,40 W series examples do you have (by year)?
Jerry

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#25

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:32 am

Legend: Some info on pages 199 and later is definitely wrong. As I mentioned earlier, Legend has two amounts of 42XAs. Obviously both cannot be correct. Palmer says 42XA2016 is on record as receiving repairs so the SN from Palmer is higher than both Legend figures. Legend has no figure for 1963 Servi-Cars but I have photos of two factory-stamped SNs, the highest of which is 63G15++. Even if H-D could not find figures for the 1963 S-Cs they could have just said figures unknown. Legend says three motorcycles were built in 1903 but we know that is untrue. So with Harley making alarming mistakes such as the above then I have to be sceptical of all their info on pages 199 and later.

Palmer, 1937–64: Early editions contain at least 600 errors and later ones at least 400. My opinion is the number will run higher. I did not think the book would be perfect but neither did I expect to later discover that a book I paid full price for contained hundreds of mistakes. One time on the old HTT I quoted some casting date code info from the book only to be told by a certain contributor to said book that 1950s codes were not read the way I thought. Great. But I was not thinking they were read any certain way; what I was doing was quoting the book. And if the codes were not read that way then who provided that info for the book? Earlier the same person told me the 3 3 code shows up on 1940s stuff. But of course I received no answer when I questioned him about that. Terrific. And I still do not believe him. He also said frame codes did not change. Yeah, right. That same person, who shall remain unnamed, later posted an alleged update for engine date codes that confused things even further so I decided the only way to find the truth was to do my own research. I have even had a couple of people contact me because they were concerned their engine number was bad, according to what they read in the book. But I explained the book was incorrect.

Palmer, 1932–52 military: I have no idea how many errors this one contains but I found some definite problems regarding serial number info. However, I tend to believe a lot of his info concerning the amounts of military models because the way he presents it leads me to think he had access to military info regarding such things.

Hatfield: I cannot say much about possible problems in my Hatfield book because it goes back to 1903 and I do not know a lot about the very early years. Something that does bother me is the possibility that his description of some machines we discussed may be misleading regarding their proper year—for example, what machines were really 1941 models? It also seems he did not fully understand serial numbers because he describes 35E1002 as the second 61 OHV built when in fact it would have been the third one made and that sort of thing makes me wonder what else he failed to understand.

Quote: ‘Do you think 40W engines exist or don't exist and explain why.’
I do not know if they exist or not. You sounded sure they were built on request so I asked for your reason. Palmer page 547 has no W or WS in the list of models available to the dealer for normal orders for 1940. Notice the words for normal orders. That is what he says. And that appears to concur with page 4 which indicates the Model W was only built for 1937–39. But if 39 was the last year for the W then why is it not mentioned in his 1939 Last Year of Features list? And why is there no W in his page 538 list of available models for that year? The W and WS are both absent from his page 531 list of available models for 1938 yet there are two photos of an alleged 1938 prototype W on page 535. And this is another problem with the 37–64 book; it contradicts itself at times. So how do we know what, if anything, to believe? Are the two photo caption headings wrong? I do not know. But I do know that some of his other caption headings are wrong so I shall remain sceptical of all other headings until I find out what happened.

Hatfield has no W or WS in the index of his 1903–45 book.

Quote: ‘How many 37,38,39,40 W series examples do you have (by year)?’
Factory-stamped examples:
1937: Seven Ws (possibly eight; one has all characters after the W covered); five WLs; five WLDs; and five WLDRs.
1938: Possibly one W (as I mentioned in a previous post it shows 38W and then just the last sequence character); one WL; one WLD; and four WLDRs.
1939: No Ws; two WLs; two WLDs; four WLDDs; and four WLDRs.
1940: No Ws; two WLAs; six WLDs; and three WLDRs. Eric

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#26

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:38 am

Moderators, I notice in some of my posts that the apostrophe symbol (‘) has been replaced by something entirely different: ’. Is that a problem with the forum or do you think it is a fault with my computer? Thanks. Eric

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#27

Post by john HD » Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:04 am

eric,

try a sample post. i don't seem to be having trouble on our end.

don't would't shouldn't etc... then try it in a quote...

john

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#28

Post by john HD » Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:00 pm

hey eric,

did you happen to see this one? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Original ... 35b52d77bb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

a friend of mine in spring green is selling it.

wonder if it helps the theory of 1000 or 1001?

john
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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#29

Post by 1950Panhead » Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:52 pm

John,
Thanks for the post, interesting spacing on the vin, fonts match other 53's, 1 has a foot (Eric, I have a 53 vin with no foot on 1, two types of 1 in 53?)
Tell barn fresh to list some of his vin 1000 bikes, Eric thinks there are 94 of them except none have been seen except for three factory prototype photos.
Jerry

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Re: Eric - Legend verification

#30

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:25 am

john HD wrote:eric,

try a sample post. i don't seem to be having trouble on our end.

don't would't shouldn't etc... then try it in a quote...

john
Thanks, John. I've got a few apostrophes in this post. My posts that were affected were okay immediately after I submitted them but when I tuned in again later on they had changed. And I noticed it had also happened to some of my posts in other threads. I'm a member of several other forums and I haven't noticed it happening on any of them. Eric

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