shovel heads on panhead barrels

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clunker1
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shovel heads on panhead barrels

#1

Post by clunker1 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:07 pm

Does anyone know why shovel heads will not work on panhead barrels? I know this is a stupid question but I have seen people make parts compatible that were not designed to be.

Thanks



PanPal
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Re: shovel heads on panhead barrels

#2

Post by PanPal » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:30 pm

The head bolts do not line up. I believe one or 2 need to be plugged and tapped for them to line up.

clunker1
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Re: shovel heads on panhead barrels

#3

Post by clunker1 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:59 pm

Thanks. It's not woth the effort and I'd rather keep it a pan. Any concerns about converting to 80" using 80" shovel flywheels and boring stock barrels .060" to use 80" shovel pistons? I can't find 74" stroker pistons.

cdndewey
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Re: shovel heads on panhead barrels

#4

Post by cdndewey » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:20 pm

clunker1 wrote:Thanks. It's not woth the effort and I'd rather keep it a pan. Any concerns about converting to 80" using 80" shovel flywheels and boring stock barrels .060" to use 80" shovel pistons? I can't find 74" stroker pistons.
In my opinion it's not a good idea to bore to .060" over if they're less than .040 over right now. You'll just end up reducing the life of the barrels. You can get some nice stroker flywheels for a panhead from T&O.

Bosheff
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Re: shovel heads on panhead barrels

#5

Post by Bosheff » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:30 am

4 head bolts will line up. The 5th one will be off by not quite the width of the head bolt....bosheff

clunker1
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Re: shovel heads on panhead barrels

#6

Post by clunker1 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:20 pm

I don't want to show my ignorance but I have to ask. I looked at 4.25 stroker flywheels but could not find 3 7/16 pistons for that stroke. I saw S&S has 3 7/16 pistons for 4.5 and larger strokes. I dont know if that is too much stroke and also don't understand how one piston can for work for various strokes 4.5 " , 4.625, and 4.75. Lastly, S&S pistons seem very expensive for what you get. Seems like a cast KB with low expansion might be better. I got confused on their website as all tables used the 7.437 rods instead of the older pan rods (7.469).

58flh
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Re: shovel heads on panhead barrels

#7

Post by 58flh » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:33 pm

BOSHEFFS Response on the head-bolt not lining-up is the issue with the barrels.--Id you want to go stroker DONT USE S&S-wheels YOU will HAT THEM!--T&O Make the Heavy T-Monsters in many stroke sizes-(not just pan!)-But a 80-inch 4-1/4 stroke with these wheels is awesome You can go to 88-inch If memory is correct! 4-1/2-stroke .Your bore is fine!,as long as the cyl. are not screwed-up!--You can safely go to .070 on stock barrels as long as there bored using plates.If cyl. are good Keep the .040 & have some for another time when its ABSOLUTLY needed!---Just my 2---Stay-Safe---RICHIE 8)

VPH-D
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Re: shovel heads on panhead barrels

#8

Post by VPH-D » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:48 pm

If you're running an early pan motor with the loose roller bottom end, like a 49, go easy on the stroke. If it were mine, I'd leave it stock with a small cam and ride it. Find a newer bike to hot rod.
VPH-D

clunker1
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Re: shovel heads on panhead barrels

#9

Post by clunker1 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:38 pm

My '53 pan case is destroyed and has bogus numbers (was a barn ornament of my riding buddy who recently passed). I've acquired an S&S timken bearing case and now am having difficulty deciding what to do. Can't use my '53 wheels, but could use my rods. Stroker pistons list compression ratio with 7.44 newer rods instead of pan 7.47 rods. Its only .030, but I'm not sure what that means to compression. I have a set of stock 1975 rods which are 7.44 that I could use instead. I have two very good sets of pan barrels so I believe I will take advice and not bore out any more than necessary. Still confused about how the same stroker piston can work for multiple strokes (4.5, 4.625, 4.75). I assume the stock barrel length is OK for 4.5 stroke?

I always tried to keep things stock in the past so this is new for me. I very much appreciate all the comments.

VPH-D
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Re: shovel heads on panhead barrels

#10

Post by VPH-D » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:47 pm

So basically, all you have is S&S cases, some rods, and Pan cylinders? You have a lot of options...
You could call S&S for one of their 84" Hot Setup stroker kits to match your cases.
Then decide what kind of Pan heads to buy, stock or aftermarket
VPH-D

clunker1
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Re: shovel heads on panhead barrels

#11

Post by clunker1 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:04 pm

Yeah and a set of what I think is salvageable heads. I saw the 84 hot setup. Wow what a price. Besides that, I'd like to set-up the wheels like the guideline from "Saddlebagrail" in this forum. Furthermore, look above in the thread and see that Richie "58flh" said he advises against S&S wheels. I saw the S&S stroker pistons but they don't indicate what the compression would be for a 4.5" stroke. Also, they want about $300 for the pistons.
Dennis

VPH-D
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Re: shovel heads on panhead barrels

#12

Post by VPH-D » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:43 pm

S&S says their hot set up kit's pistons have 8:1 compression ratio in a Pan, 8:25 in a Shovel. Personally, I like the idea of T&O's heavier flywheels, but people have been running the light wheels for decades. If you keep your bike light, I wouldn't worry about it. In your case since you have next to nothing for your motor, the S&S kit with all it includes, would a serious consideration.
VPH-D

kitabel
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Re: shovel heads on panhead barrels

#13

Post by kitabel » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:57 pm

"Still confused about how the same stroker piston can work for multiple strokes (4.5, 4.625, 4.75)"

Very simple. S&S' goal is to minimize the number of parts catalogued and inventoried by making 1 component fit as many applications as possible.
Does it work equally well in all of them?
No, it doesn't.

The compression distance (measured from the piston pin centerline to the flat piston deck surface above the top ring land - not including the dome) is short enough to be suitable for the shortest stroke listed (4-1/2") with nominal piston to head clearance @ TDC.
The longer strokes require either stroker plates about equal to 50% of the difference between the stroke you're using and 4-1/2". E.g., a 4-5/8" needs 1/16" plate etc., or a taller cylinder by the same distance.
By recommending this, S&S is telling you that quench doesn't matter and what you get is harmless. They're wrong, but it's generally not dangerous. None of the hemi-type motors (knuck, pan, iron Sportster, shovelhead) really has effective quench anyway, so it's no BFD. Personally, I'd do whatever machining I needed to get the quench down to .035", but that's my Asperger's taking over.
OTOH, flathead, Evo and TC motors self-destruct with loose quench clearance.

My suggestion: Truett 4-1/2" TorqueMonster wheels. This is the single most effective improvement, far more helpful than a cam change, compression increase, porting, big carburetor etc. You'll see the difference every time you move the bike, not just when you rev it.
Shameless self-promotion: http://victorylibrary.com/84PAN.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

clunker1
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Re: shovel heads on panhead barrels

#14

Post by clunker1 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:19 pm

As S&S wants so mush for their stroker pistons, I wonder if it would'nt be better to use my stock bore cylinders, stock pistons, 4.25 torque monsters, and 1/8" stroker plates (minus two gasket thicknesses and assuming there is enough stud length in the case studs). The cost difference between stock pistons and S&S stroker pistons is unbelievable. Their hot set-up is outrageous in price and some don't think much of the flywheel assembly. I think it would still give me plenty of extra torque compared to stock 74". I'm not a hot rodder so I'm not looking for high rpm horse power. I'd have to check clearance in a stock HD straight leg pan frame with the taller motor and have no idea about the effect on the intake manifold (o-ring). Also have to check the top motor mount. I guess the pushrods are then also longer.

Maybe all the effects of stroker plates are why most go to stroker pistons.

JR JOHNSON
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Re: shovel heads on panhead barrels

#15

Post by JR JOHNSON » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:10 pm

if you use stroker plates,stock pistons,you have to relocate drain hole in the cyl,braze,redrill lower down so oil rings don't line up with drain.talk to t&o,they will help ya better than guessing........with respect...........JR......ALSO they have cast stroker pistons,need to talk to them....

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