63 valve seat

Top End (cylinders and heads)
Cotten
Posts: 6788
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: 63 valve seat

#16

Post by Cotten » Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:08 pm

Guerrino!

The valvestem protrusion as shown in the Service Manual is your first inspection after trial dressing of the new seat.
The minimum protrusion is your target, unless using an aftermarket "performance" cam.

The spacing, or length when installed, of your springs depends upon two parameters:
The pressure they produce at zero 'lift' of the valve, and clearance from 'coilbind' when at maximum lift.
Coilbind dimension is easily measured by placing the spring in a vice, and compressing it until it is lightly compressed to its shortest dimension.

These terms are easily confused, particularly when translated.
So please feel free to ask a question over and over!

Valve stem protrusion can be measured with a common caliper:
STEMHGHT.jpg
Spring Spring pressure can be measured with a common bathroom scale upon a drill press, with an old valve in the chuck to apply force.
SPRGPRSS.jpg
Re-cut original seats will require shimming to return to pressure, but fresh seats with fresh springs should be in the 90 pounds range.

More when I can...

...Cotten
PS: (Beware that we must first assume that the headcastings have never been cut deeper upon the seat for the springs. This was a common practice for Manley kits for high-lift cams, and greatly complicates matters.)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.



badran33
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:55 pm
Bikes: 68 early shovel
Location: italy

Re: 63 valve seat

#17

Post by badran33 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:47 pm

so...i have to achieve this (1.500) valve stem protrusion, measured from the flange of the guide to the tip of the valve stem.:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Cotten
Posts: 6788
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: 63 valve seat

#18

Post by Cotten » Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:00 pm

That is correct, Guerrino,

If a new seat insert is not cut deep enough to give 1.500" on a brand new valve, then some cams will cause the valves to hit each other.

(I found this with a Crane cam when the seats were still only .015" shallow.)

....Cotten

badran33
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:55 pm
Bikes: 68 early shovel
Location: italy

Re: 63 valve seat

#19

Post by badran33 » Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:28 pm

http://valvetrain.kpmivalvetrain.com/As ... 100585.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cotten
Posts: 6788
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: 63 valve seat

#20

Post by Cotten » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:06 am

Guerrino!

Three things immediately alarm me about the Kibblewhite information.

The first alarm is the word "racing".
Next, 160lbs of seat pressure must certainly include the inner spring, and even then may compromise the longevity of the assembly.
Third is the notion of cutting the head casting to accomodate overlength springs or an extreme cam lift. This is the "Manley" disease I mentioned previously.

I strongly suggest sticking to original design and specifications!
Do your have the original springs and retainers?

....Cotten

badran33
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:55 pm
Bikes: 68 early shovel
Location: italy

Re: 63 valve seat

#21

Post by badran33 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:35 am

Cotten, first of all let me thank you for your precious attention!

Yes i have all the original staff and sure i'll follow your directions and use it.
i've understand the "stem protusion" but i find it difficult to understand when you say:
The spacing, or length when installed, of your springs depends upon two parameters:
The pressure they produce at zero 'lift' of the valve, and clearance from 'coilbind' when at maximum lift.
Is this theme linked to this
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or can i don't think about it as i'll use a standard cam??

i have bought two pairs of original bronze seats (paid its weight in gold!), one pair is standard size as the other pair is oversize: this should be good for me as the bores of the seats in one head have been enlarge while the setas in the other one should have maintained the original size. so can i say to the machinist to use an interference of .0035 ??
thanks
G.

Cotten
Posts: 6788
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: 63 valve seat

#22

Post by Cotten » Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:39 pm

G!

My computer does not have the capacity to view youtube.

.0035" interference should be more than enough when the replacement insert is placed within the original seat. Their thermal expansion should be indentical.

If the insert is installed within the aluminum, however, more interference may be prudent.
I only have experience with hardened seats for that circumstance.

Spring "spacing" involve first measuring the distance between collars when installed upon the valvestem and guide. A light spring such as from a brake cylinder makes this easy.

The spring's pressure is then measured at that distance, as shown in my previous post.
When seats have been cut many times, the distance increases, and the springs must be shimmed.
I would guess that you will find that outer springs will produce 90 to 120 lbs with fresh seats.

Many choose to shim or cut the collars to make all equal.

Coil bind and free travel are two more parameters that I must address when I have more time to type. (Attempting to view the video seems to have slowed my browser greatly!)
Do you intend to use valve stem seals?

....Cotten

58flh
Posts: 3332
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:54 pm
Bikes: 1958flh 1969sporty,had a knuckle but sold back to original owner
Location: NEW JERSEY

Re: 63 valve seat

#23

Post by 58flh » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:18 pm

Badran33---I just checked-out the sites & u-tube that you put-up. This is standard practice on all valve installations!--(It should be anyway!).Upon the 160lb. seat pressure that COTTEN has explained!--(IS WISE ADVICE!).---The OEM Panheaf fesign foes not condone to (racing grinds )very well!.What happens!---You burn lots of gas & lose performance & no gain!.--The beast thing is to go with the stock formula!--However there are a few things that SHOULD be Done!.Make a sanding mop & just remove any casting nerds left in the intake & Ex. tracts!-(THATS IT!)---Don't play FLOWBENCH with your heads -Without a flowbench!.Even with one --(NOT NESSESSARY!).Upon the guides--I take the intake & ex. guides & Taper them on a LATHE!.Put taper in the port ofcourse--This will give some better flow going in & going out!.,By simply removing some of the matieral off the valve-guides!.CAMS!---Try for a stock FLH cam if you can find somebody that will part with a good one!--Or there are some very desireable grinds by SIFTON!--(Todays Siftons do not BUY!!!--They are junk-REALLY!)--A 1980s era Sifton .440 grind is a GREAT CAM for a panhead!.--(Im sure others that actually used them & still are will agree! :D ).But again to find one???& usually if you do-CHECK it over between centers!,GUYS usually hoard these as there great for a TOURQUE MOTOR like a pan!.BUT you can find them!-& that's goodthing.Also I have looked into a Sifton .440 COPY by -(BLACK WIDOW cams!)-They are made in usa & are made to exact specs.---I plan on getting one for a upcoming bobber.Another choice is ANDREWS J-or #1 grinds!--I have run both & Both are good runners!--The J I ran for 3+yrs & its easier to kick then a FLH cam which I put back in.-The #1--is about the same performance wise!--If I was to recommend you one -USE the J!--Its very close to stock F & Fl cams.Todays guides are better & The OEM Manual call for excessive valve to guide clearences!--I use .0015 -.002 in both IN. & EX.--You will notice that the guides are chamfered on the springside--I remove this chamfer to make a 90-degree to wall & hit the sharp end with a Millsmooth-file for just a touch to remove the SHARP-EDGES!.I do this because I use TEFLON-SEALS-(MANLY)--& THEY hold better with more of a FLAT surface to seat upon.--(Its not nessesary!-I just do this because some old habbits from my track-days a hard to break).-Use the springs supplied by the cams supplier. & tip the valves for even hight!--As was explained earlier!.--I use my pan on a daily basis for MANY YRS.!--& the FACTORY FORMULA you cant go wrong with!---STAY AWAY from the (A-GRIND!)--no dignificant gains & they run like shit should you choose HYD-TAPPETS!.-They run better with a SOLID-Tappet & then olny with STD aftermarket panheads!.----RESPECTFULLY---RICHIE

Cotten
Posts: 6788
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: 63 valve seat

#24

Post by Cotten » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:10 pm

Just for clarity, Folks,

Kibblewhite's info addressed both springs at once,
where my guestimations involve only the outer.

Back to free travel and coilbind,
once you know your cam, and determine the lift or travel of the valve, it must be made certain that the top collar will not strike the top of the guide or seal. Most builders want at least .060" clearance.

And once the travel has been determined, the springs should be compressed in a vice until they lightly reach their limit, or bind.
The installed height, or distance between collars, minus the travel, must still give at least .060" clearance over the coilbind height.

A couple of more notes on seat replacement:
Often a thermally conductive compound is used to fill any micro gaps between the insert and the head. Most commonly this is Seal-Lock "Fluid Weld" http://silver-seal.com/

The seat is usually chilled, and the heat heated in an oven to ease installation.
To press them, I used a pilot in the guide for a large steel cylinder slightly smaller than the insert, to which I then could apply a hammer. The cylinder would absorb the shock, but still drive the insert.

And often the practice of "clinching" adds security.
This is when a burnishing tool is placed in the counterboring machine to roll the edge of the head casting (or in this case, the original bronze seat) over the insert. This was far more common in the past than today.

(With radical cams and oversized valves, the distance between valve heads as they travel through the stroke must be inspected with a .060 bent wire through the sparkplug hole. It is not an easy feat.)

....Cotten

badran33
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:55 pm
Bikes: 68 early shovel
Location: italy

Re: 63 valve seat

#25

Post by badran33 » Mon May 05, 2014 10:53 am

Thanks Richie,
all good informations i will take care. i have an andrews J cam so i'm happy i can use it with no doubt now.
May you please explain me when you say taper the guide, mean work on the part of the guide that go inside the hole in the head?
Thanks Cotten,
at the end i've got it! now i've understand.

Attached one bored seat where you can still see the bronze insert.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Cotten
Posts: 6788
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: 63 valve seat

#26

Post by Cotten » Mon May 05, 2014 12:15 pm

G!

It appears that all of the original bronze has been cut away, except for the cast in tangs.
(It also appears you had no choice...)

As I mentioned previously, the installations of bronze seats that I have encountered were pressed into the original seats, not directly into the aluminum. Therefore the tangs would retain them.

I am no longer certain of what the proper interference should be!

....Cotten

badran33
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:55 pm
Bikes: 68 early shovel
Location: italy

Re: 63 valve seat

#27

Post by badran33 » Thu May 08, 2014 6:46 am

i try with .0035 than...i'll let you kow. :roll:

Post Reply

Return to “Top End”