Crank pin roller retainer material

Bottom End (crankcases and crankshaft)
Post Reply
Tunglegubbin
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:00 pm
Bikes: 48EL
Location: Sweden
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Crank pin roller retainer material

#1

Post by Tunglegubbin » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:24 am

I bought a new set of connecting rods, complete with crank pin and bearings.

My engine guy just put together the parts I delivered to him, but had to re-align the rods and hone the wrist pin bushing.
So the advantage of new stuff was maybe not worth the money.

Recently I stumbled across the information that you cannot use aluminum roller retainers with the original steel thrust washers.
You have to switch to the newer bronze washers, or put in a steel roller retainer.
My new connecting rod set of course has the aluminum retainer, and I have my original flywheels with steel washers.

Am I in trouble? Do I need to take it apart and start over? Or is it just humbug?

/Mikael



Cotten
Posts: 6913
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 275 times

Re: Crank pin roller retainer material

#2

Post by Cotten » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:59 pm

Tunglegubbin!

Although common sense tells you both the aluminum cages and bronze thrust washers have their own inherent inferiorities to steels, however I never opened a machine that suggested either were instantly incompatible with the earlier designs.

The first aluminum cages with "interrupted" bearing surfaces seemed to pick up particulates and wear the rollers barrel-shaped.
But then I am told the Factory eventually went to barrel-shaped roller on purpose!

If there were a significant incompatibility, it should be universal by now. Where did you read it?

....Cotten

Tunglegubbin
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:00 pm
Bikes: 48EL
Location: Sweden
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Crank pin roller retainer material

#3

Post by Tunglegubbin » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:04 pm

http://books.google.se/books?id=woSJ8CF ... CDUQ6AEwAA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not sure if the link will work.


"Donny's Unauthorized Technical Guide to Harley Davidson 1936-2008, Volym 1"
By Donny Petersen, page 282

RUBONE
Moderator
Posts: 5527
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:09 am
Bikes: Multiple H-D, Ducati, BMW, Triumph, BSA,...
Has thanked: 51 times
Been thanked: 684 times

Re: Crank pin roller retainer material

#4

Post by RUBONE » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:48 am

H-D used aluminum cages and steel washers on Sportsters for all the '60s. They also used aluminum cages and steel washers on all their race bikes through the KR lifespan and into the XRs.
I guess someone should have warned them....

jnjlabs
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:00 pm
Bikes: 7 shovels and a 1937 u model with sidecar
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Crank pin roller retainer material

#5

Post by jnjlabs » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:18 am

my opinion only... bearing retainers need to be checked to make sure they are at least .010 or more below any rod or other surface when building anything, nothing last forever just me that's how Iv'e done it for the past thirty or so years. Have taken apart many engines with not much left of the aluminum cages and the crank pins worn through the hardening, some people just run them into the ground. :P

58flh
Posts: 3337
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:54 pm
Bikes: 1958flh 1969sporty,had a knuckle but sold back to original owner
Location: NEW JERSEY
Has thanked: 195 times
Been thanked: 259 times

Re: Crank pin roller retainer material

#6

Post by 58flh » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:12 pm

My 69 is put together with Alum.-cage & steels thrust!---I rebuilt it that way in the 80s & it runs Very good!--Have a ton of miles on it & it starts up real easy!--3-4-Prime kicks,& n1-hot kick. I had to put it back to almost stock-specs. It was my quarter-pounder for a few yrs.--So I slowed her down & made it streetable so the ol-Lady could kick-it & tool around.--Im not sure but I believe the AMF-Shortster, Had Alum.-caged rollers.-I remember doing one many moons ago & the pistons literaly could pull them 1/8 to 3/16s in the bottom-End with the barrels removed!---& It still RAN! :shock: /Really it sounded like S--T,but started!.Anyway The cages were obsolete but I did find some mashed matieral that looked like Alum.-Like I said Not 100% sure on this!----Richie 8)

jnjlabs
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:00 pm
Bikes: 7 shovels and a 1937 u model with sidecar
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Crank pin roller retainer material

#7

Post by jnjlabs » Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:55 am

as does my 69 it has s&s wheels in it with alluiminum cages and I have ridden it hard and rebuilt it many times for 30 years or so, also rebuilt countless engines using aluminum with no issues they are all still in service.

shelbyinparadise
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:58 am
Bikes: 1939ULH
1940UA/sidecar
1942WLA
1952WLA
1956FLH/sidecar

Re: Crank pin roller retainer material

#8

Post by shelbyinparadise » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:07 pm

Has any one had trouble with the UL rod kits sold by V-Twin? a customer has had a motor lock up after many trouble free miles, and I have my thoughts that the retainers were of the powdered metal variety (sintered steel) as the pockets separated from the base of the retainer on all 4 retainers. Then two of the base pieces fell apart into short arcs. this left two washer like pieces and a whole lot of fragments that locked up the rods. looks like 3 hole S&S crankpin, T&O flywheels, sold as a kit in 2003. I really feel that the retainers came apart first and the outer row of female rod with the two washer like pieces of retainer both crankpin and rod race surface was still smooth while sprocket side rod bearings locked up with pin and other bearings.

I have never built a motor with out using real steel retainers from H-D. Any thoughts? Shelby

Cotten
Posts: 6913
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:09 am
Location: Central Illinois
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 275 times

Re: Crank pin roller retainer material

#9

Post by Cotten » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:23 pm

Welcome Shelby!

Sounds like a "smoking gun" piece of evidence to me.

.....Cotten

Post Reply

Return to “Bottom End / Crankcases”