STD cases and sumping issue

Bottom End (crankcases and crankshaft)
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ian86
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:58 pm
Bikes: panhead composite
83 fxe

STD cases and sumping issue

#1

Post by ian86 »

hi, im new here but have learned quite a bit reading as a guest. i recently got a panhead composite built with STD cases. it was titled as an 86 so im assuming the cases are around that vintage. it has a 54 front head, and unnumbered 60s rear head, and what i think are 51 cylinders. the bike runs good but had oiled down clutches when i got it. im in the process of changing some things around and putting in a new set of clutches so the bike has been sitting around for a few weeks.

it has sumped oil out the crankcase vent onto the ground 3 times now. after reading on here i know why this happens and also how to fix it. i plan on trying to burnish the seat and get the new ball bearing and spring but im not sure which spring i should get. there are two part numbers one for 55 and down and another for 56 and up. im not sure what style the std cases would be. i assume it would depend on what oil pump the motor has but im not sure what year it is. also if it matters, the standard breather setup that would oil the primary chain is blocked with a bolt since this bike has an open belt and instead the crankcase vents out a short rubber tube which i assume is part of the same breather circuit? the pictures below are not great but show my oil pump and the short breather tube which the oil has been leaking from.

Image
Image

also would it be a crazy idea to put a 3/8 ball valve right off the oil tank to shut off the feed line to the crankcase? winter is coming and the bike will inevitably be spending more time sitting. i know this would be dangerous and fatal to the engine if it was not turned on while running. also the brit guys have come up with this valve in the link below to solve the problem. its 3/8" but my question would be is there enough suction in the feed line for this to work properly on a panhead?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Anti-wet ... _640wt_939" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

also when will the next batch of burnishing tools be available from mr cotten? i have read lots about his tools on here and would like to buy one. sorry if this post is too long, this is my first harley and im still learning.



Tintin
Posts: 13
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Bikes: 1972 HD FLH
1956 Norton Dominator CafeRacer
1964 Norton Atlas
1970 Norton Commando

Re: STD cases and sumping issue

#2

Post by Tintin »

ian86 wrote: also the brit guys have come up with this valve in the link below to solve the problem. its 3/8" but my question would be is there enough suction in the feed line for this to work properly on a panhead?
Being (well partially) one of those "Brit guys" I can give you my opinion on this kind of valve: I have two Nortons which are well known for wet-sumping. I had wet-sumping in one of those two times as they do it even with a relatively new oil pump. The solution for the P-twin in the Norton is pretty straightforward: Just kick it into compression (which also means a closed breather in that particular engine) before you leave it. When I got my Shovel a few months ago I noticed it drops some oil (very little) as well and therefore I remember this Norton lesson and kicked it into compression as well - and since I do so I don't see more than one or two small drops of oil even after weeks. Wet-sumping on the Shovel was not an issue but then I guess the oil pump still is just too new to do so.

As an engine design engineer my opinion on these in-line valves it pretty clear: Don't even think of putting any kind of obstacle (other than a mesh in the oil tank) in front of the oil pump. It just represents another source of failure and will limit the crucial flow to the oil pump. Let me put it this way: Amateurs put this check valve in the suction line, engineers in the pressure line AFTER the oil pump. Just like HD did - and guess where Norton put it when they finally did so on the final Commando.

If you want to store the bike for longer time just drain most of the oil from the tank after your last ride and put some kind of a reminder onto the seat so you don't forget to replace it.


Tim

ian86
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:58 pm
Bikes: panhead composite
83 fxe

Re: STD cases and sumping issue

#3

Post by ian86 »

thanks for the reply. i agree as putting something in the way of the feed wouldnt feel right and would keep me constantly worried in the back of my head if its working while running. i do intend to fix the problem the right way. has anyone with a dry belt primary ever run their breather line back to the oil tank somehow? the tank would have to be vented or a tee with a small air filter could be used but this might look pretty ugly. i have no provision to do this with my chrome tank and wouldnt want to cut and weld a new fitting into but it was another idea i had.

i guess the important questions left are how to identify what oil pump i have so that i get the right check ball spring

steve_wood
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Re: STD cases and sumping issue

#4

Post by steve_wood »

Ian,

Maybe keep your eyes open for an oil tank with the crankcase vent fitting? Find a used one, clean it up, paint it black, put it on. That would solve the venting problem, and you could keep running your rig while you look for a tank....

Just a thought....

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Re: STD cases and sumping issue

#5

Post by steve_wood »

Something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ORIG-OIL ... 1506wt_941" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What year is your frame?

ian86
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83 fxe

Re: STD cases and sumping issue

#6

Post by ian86 »

i don't see an extra fitting on that tank. i have a very similar black stock tank like that except it is side fill on a knucklehead frame in the garage. the chrome repop tank on the panhead has the three fittings as well and is also side fill but i thought the two on the front were for oil return and the other was oil scavenging from the crank case? if you look at the pictures of my oil pump there is the black rubber feed line, two braided oil return lines, and then a short section of rubber line which i assume is the vent. that is where the oil leaks out of. wouldn't you need a tank with three fittings on the front up high to do this and then a vented oil cap also?

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Re: STD cases and sumping issue

#7

Post by steve_wood »

Unfortunately, I have an S&S pump on my sled so I'm not real familiar with the stock pump. But I'll take a shot at it. In your picture, the top steel braided line is the crank case vent. It goes to the one of the two fittings on the top of the tank. The lower braided line is the oil return. It goes to the filter and then to the tank. The oil supply from the tank comes from the fitting on the bottom right side at the back of the tank. That should be the lower rubber line on your rig. I *think* that the 2" line on yours is the rear chain oiler? The fitting near it might be the front chain oiler?

Maybe one of the other fellas with a stock pump can help out here....

ian86
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83 fxe

Re: STD cases and sumping issue

#8

Post by ian86 »

if that is the case can the chain oiler be blocked with a plug? almost every time i move the bike around i get some random dripping out of that 2" line. i assume its whatever leaks down to the case past the pump. if the crankcase is already vented to the oil tank i should be able to plug that 2" line since it isnt oiling my rear chain or primary chain anymore correct?

steve_wood
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Re: STD cases and sumping issue

#9

Post by steve_wood »

Yup, that's what I was thinking but it sure would be nice if one of the other fellas who knows OEM pumps could weigh in.

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Re: STD cases and sumping issue

#10

Post by RUBONE »

if the crankcase is already vented to the oil tank i should be able to plug that 2" line since it isnt oiling my rear chain or primary chain anymore correct?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!
The vent to the oil tank is merely to equalize the pressure between the oil tank and engine so that GRAVITY feed will work, the vent to the atmosphere is to allow the pressure buildup in the cases to vent and keep the engine from pressurizing and squirting oil out of every possible seam! Your aftermarket cases are set up like '65 and later H-d cases. The short oil line you show should exit at the back of the tranny, not where it is. There is a certain amount of oil vapor that is discharged, even with the chain oiler shut off. Later H-D's had the line go into the air filter so the vapor burned off during combustion, a messy idea that didn't really work.
DO NOT plug that line!
Robbie

ian86
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Re: STD cases and sumping issue

#11

Post by ian86 »

ok that makes sense. i guess i could add some hose and make it oil the rear chain instead of oiling the entire rear section of the bike. if the cases are 65 and later ill order the right spring and check ball try and make the repair. im hoping that plug in the pump will come out without too much effort. ill let you guys know how it goes.

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Re: STD cases and sumping issue

#12

Post by RUBONE »

The case type is '65 style, but the oil pump is not! The pump you have pictured is a late '50 or '51 style.
Robbie

ian86
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:58 pm
Bikes: panhead composite
83 fxe

Re: STD cases and sumping issue

#13

Post by ian86 »

ok so ill order the 55-earlier spring and a check ball. thanks for the help so far.

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