Cycle Electric Generator

Electrical

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nan00k
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Re: Cycle Electric Generator

#16

Post by nan00k » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:12 pm

thanks Frankenstein . Having spoken to Karl at CE he was adamant that at no time should a regulator allow a draw of greater than 10A, so to me that means there is a built in 'resistor' that limits the draw to that ceiling level so am I right in thinking that it will just take longer to achieve a full charge.

Also, the spec' I was given for the solid state regulator available was 12v 100 watt that would mean it would never give the optimum full battery charge of 13.4v

edit just read your post again Frankenstein, i think you have answered this already.



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Re: Cycle Electric Generator

#17

Post by rocket ron » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:11 am

Frankenstein, does this mean you should NEVER charge a flat battery using the bike's charging system if you have an electronic regulator? I gather this doesn't apply to mechanical regulators.
Ron

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Re: Cycle Electric Generator

#18

Post by Frankenstein » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:04 pm

As regards to your conversation with Karl,I think the operative word is "Should". I had presumed from reading CE's literature that their end mounted regulator would allow higher currents than 10a, and that they monitored generator temperature to avoid failure. If he says you shouldn't exceed 10a, then I presume their designs incorporate that limit. It's relatively simple to monitor current draw electronically and set limits, so I assume that's what they are doing.
I've personally only done autopsies on the cheap "regulator in the end cap", and the "regulator placed inside the relay can". They make no attempt at current monitoring.
So, yes, If you can avoid using your 65A genny system to charge a flat battery in the bike, it's probably safer. Because most 12volt conversions use a small amp-hour battery, you're most likely to get away with it, as battery voltage rises quickly enough to keep you out of trouble.
Nan00k, as to the 12v, 8.3 regulator you refer to, I can only speculate. My speculation is that the it's labeling is using what we would call a "Nominal voltage" rating, and actual regulated voltage would be at a higher, useful voltage. I can't tell where you're located, but if you lived in G.B, I would suspect this regulator was built with 6v to 12v conversion of Lucas E3L generators in mind, which would probably max out at 8.3A. Only a guess though.
I know I've mentioned this before, but having burnt up dozens of 65A armatures, I'll say it again.
The 65A genny doesn't have the same robust conservative design parameters that Harley was noted for in most of it's engineering back in the day. It was a stopgap measure to offer electric starting. It's operating parameters are too close to it's maximum safe limits. They were depending on the voltage/current regulator to protect the genny, as there was no built in excess capability in the genny itself to protect it.
A safer, perfectly usable alternative, if you have a working 6 volt genny, is to convert it when doing a 6V to 12V upgrade. The heavier armature windings in a 6V armature give a greater margin of safety and protection from burnout. The only operational difference is that the rpm at which the generator starts producing useful charging output is raised a few hundred rpms. Like charging starts at say, 1300 rpms. Unless all you do is ride from bar to bar in downtown traffic at night and always lug your motor, there's no problem. There just isn't a down side to this conversion. All that's required is using the 65A fields in your 6 volt genny. No changing the armature.
O.k., if you got this far in this diatribe, I'll try one more time for a smile.
Last post I tried for a smile by passing on the "smoke theory".
Here's the "Fat Electron" corollary.
You've all seen the pictures of an atom, with a nucleus and electrons whizzing around it. Well, what they don't tell you is that there are a few "fat electrons" loose out there that are out to cause trouble in the electronics world. Mostly, they stay to themselves and don't bother us, or rather our electronic devices. But once and awhile one goes on a rampage and creates mischief.
You've seen transistors and integrated circuits, IC's, those little black caterpillar things on printed circuit boards that have those little leads coming out of them. Well, occasionally, one of these fat electrons comes around and gets stuck in one of those leads and can't pass through. Well, when that happens, the device quits working. The only cure is to thump the device in hopes that you can jar the fat electron loose. Give it a bang and then the device starts working again! :D Right? You've all seen this happen, many times when all else fails and you give the device a big wack, it will suddenly start working again. Am I right or what?
And I'm sure by now you all regret my typing teacher Mother making me take typing in Summer School :lol: .
DD

nan00k
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Re: Cycle Electric Generator

#19

Post by nan00k » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:16 am

thanks for that, so would max 8.3amp charge not be sufficient to keep the battery up to spec'?

I think you're correct about the solid state regulator I,ve seen being made with lucas generator in mind, it has a wire that you snip on the back if you want to change from a 5v to 12v application.

it;s a bit dissapointing that the bloke who manufactures them doesn't want to commit, even if it was as blunt as 'it may fry your generator'. He is just dismissive of the CE generator and won't say why. Personally I'd say try it at your own cost and report back, at least he would learn of another way not to do it or wrong application at no cost.

i think the PO of the WL was thinking along the same lines as you, one of the spare that came with it was a sportster generator I'll have to look to see if it is a 12v.

Bodge of the day; just to keep things running I removed one of the worn out points pads on the existing regulator and soldered in a new replacement taken from a new non desrciot set of points I had under the bench. seems to work 8o/

Two atoms walking down the street,
'wait..., i think i've lost an electron'
'are you sure?'
'yep, i'm positive'

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Re: Cycle Electric Generator

#20

Post by Frankenstein » Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:07 pm

The determining factor if your battery stays charged is if demand is less than supply. If total load in use, lights ignition, stereo... draws less than what your regulator and generator can safely handle, you will have excess power available to keep the battery charged. In this case, the regulator can safely handle 8.3 amps, the genny 10, so as long as load is less than 8.3 amps, you should be o.k.
Doing the math, say 1 amp for ignition, 4.5 amps headlight, .59 amp taillight, and an intermittent 2.1 amps for brake light, normal load would be 6.0 amps, jumping to 8.1 amps upon brake application.
That means if the battery is fully charged, it will probably only draw an amp or so to stay topped up in normal use. In actual practice, hitting the brakes will probably see both the genny and battery sharing the current to supply the momentary extra load. Likewise horn if it is electric.
And, not to slight your homeland, but the CE/65A generator is a far better, more reliable device than the Lucas E3L. The robust construction of the 65A gives it away.
I hope this helps, and I congratulate you on not letting the discussion become negative...
DD

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Re: Cycle Electric Generator

#21

Post by George Greer » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:39 am

Herr Dr.

How would the usage of LED lights in all locations on the bike affect this?

My 58FL project is All LED's.

George

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Re: Cycle Electric Generator

#22

Post by Frankenstein » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:54 pm

George, Depends on how you approach LED lighting. They're the most efficient lighting available for bikes to date. The standard headlight bulb is a 60/55W rated bulb. If you used a LED lamp with the same power rating, then no difference in draw. But most LED lamps are more likely to give a Lumen rating, or how much light output there is. Generally, you can get more lumen output than incandescent and still draw less power. Obviously, lower demand from the electrical system.
The Brits have gone one step further, and offer LED replacements that give roughly the same lumen output of the old incandescent bulbs they replace, which really lower the power draw. This is a big help to those old 6V Lucas systems. Jos Lucas secretly believed that bikers had no business wandering around in the night, and was secretly in league with the government to keep all bikers home after dark, drinking their warm beer from their Lucas refrigerators :lol:
DD

nan00k
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Re: Cycle Electric Generator

#23

Post by nan00k » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:19 am

" a gentleman never motors about after dark" attributed to Joseph Lucas ( Prince of Darkness ) :twisted:

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