Fishy VIN ?

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Raytag
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Fishy VIN ?

#1

Post by Raytag » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:07 pm

Hi,
my name is Ray and I`m the new 55yrs old kid on the block. I`m from Germany riding a shovel in an oem 49 hardtail.
I may be ready for a Pan and I was offered a 51 FL.
Some am-parts ,some parts of other years but that`s all petty stuff.

The VIN is what concerns me
Motornr.jpg
It looks to me that the serial number was grinded off , welded up again with TIG and punched in new numbers. It doesn`t look like cast. There seems to be something below the first seven.

The bellynumbers (no pic) are excellent 151-7404

What do you think ?
I checked the page with case numbers at vintageamericanmotorcycles to "get a feel" for casted surfaces but some cases seem polished as well

Thanks for your time
Ray
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George Greer
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Re: Fishy VIN ?

#2

Post by George Greer » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:53 pm

Hi Ray,

Welcome on the board, please go to the New Members section and introduce yourself there.

I am in Germany too, in Bayern.

I just finished up my 1958 FL bitsa bike and got it licensed and tagged just this week.

The motor numbers you show, I quite honestly don't have enough experience to give a response. But don't look right.

Many others here do, and one of them will surely will chime in soon.

George

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Re: Fishy VIN ?

#3

Post by Buddhahoodvatoloco » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:24 pm

Empirically, the belly numbers are real close like 103 off, good sign, but they do have some acid that will raise original numbers, if there is some.

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Re: Fishy VIN ?

#4

Post by RooDog » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:33 pm

Another urban legend. Acid will not raise numbers that have been welded over. I've been on that ride....
....RooDog....

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Re: Fishy VIN ?

#5

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:03 am

Ray, welcome to the forum. Have you seen that SN in person or have you only seen the photo? All characters appear the usual factory types for a 51 Pan but from that picture it’s hard to be certain about what’s happening with the first 7. Can you post an even clearer and closer photo please. As for the scrapes and/or scratches, I don’t think they are a concern and I’ve seen a similar effect on another 51 Pan number boss and its SN looked okay.

Can you also post a photo showing the rest of the left case to the left of the number boss. And a photo of the R-H case as well as clear pictures of both BNs.

Are any characters stamped on top of the cases near the rear engine mounting bolts? Photo?

Regarding Vintage American Motorcycles, please be advised that some of its ‘case numbers’ that appear to be non-factory are not described as such—for example, 50FL11328 and 52FL2330. And there are several other VAM case numbers that fall into the same category.
Eric

Raytag
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Re: Fishy VIN ?

#6

Post by Raytag » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:41 am

Eric
I somewhat managed to copy those pics from the original ad although I have the impression that some resolution got amiss. I haven`t seen the bike in person cause it is a 7 hrs drive.
The 7 on the rearmount of both cases is visible in the original ad picture.
The gearcase cover I guess is 52 or 53. The heads I believe are 55 (4 ribs below plug)
I believe ( ... ) I can see the vent plug between the am-startercover and the shifter cover.
The rest of the bike is a mix of am and latter parts but to be honest the engine is my major concern. He claims that the tin works are oem but to me the gastank isn`t. But again it`s the engine, tranny, frame to me

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Thanks a bunch
Ray

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Re: Fishy VIN ?

#7

Post by Buddhahoodvatoloco » Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:45 pm

You say, well I seen the HP here in dago used some liquid on a vin, and up poped another vin. :P :P
RooDog wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:33 pm
Another urban legend. Acid will not raise numbers that have been welded over. I've been on that ride....
....RooDog....

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Re: Fishy VIN ?

#8

Post by RooDog » Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:03 pm

Well, some times it works, and some times it don't. So I would not count on it happening....
If the numbers were simply filed or ground ("grinded" for the English language impaired) off, then yes, the acid could raise the impressed characters. But if the numbers had been deeply remove, cut out, maybe with a drill bit or die grinder burr, and filled with weld, then there is little likelihood of recovering the original impressions. Looking at this particular set of numbers I see some pin holes indicating a poor cover up weld job, possibly with flux cored MIG welding. No?

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Re: Fishy VIN ?

#9

Post by dontsink » Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:44 pm

Shouldn't it have a hydra fork?

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Re: Fishy VIN ?

#10

Post by RUBONE » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:02 pm

dontsink wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:44 pm
Shouldn't it have a hydra fork?
It appears that no two parts on that bike ever came together originally.... :shock: And lots of repop stuff on it.

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Re: Fishy VIN ?

#11

Post by Speeding Big Twin » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:58 am

Thanks for the extra photos. They show both cases are early-52 or earlier. And they appear to be 1951 because I can’t see anything wrong with the BNs and all characters are the normal factory types for a 51 Pan.

I can’t tell what style of 7s are on top of the cases but for 1951 I’d expect them to be sans serif like these.

Sans serif 7s.jpg

Looks like the heads have an O-ring manifold so it could suggest 55 or later but many 48–54 heads have been converted. Ask the seller if there are date codes and/or casting numbers under the heads on their R-H side.
Cylinders appear to have some ID at the base in the centre and they may be date codes. Check with the seller.
Tappet guides aluminium or cast iron? Normally aluminium for 48–52 and cast iron for 53–65.
Oil pump is 68 or later if H-D or it could be AM?
Outer primary is 49 or earlier if H-D or it could be AM?
I can’t see a relay assembly?

Re the trans case, ask the seller if there’s a date code underneath. More trans case info via the link below to a thread started by me in 2016.


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15569


Gas tank nameplates are 61–62 style but I can’t tell if they are H-D or AM. And I can’t tell if the tanks are H-D or AM.

Re the frame, does the seller know anything about it? Ask for close-up photos of both sides of the steering head, both horn blocks, both sidecar loops, toolbox bracket and both axle clips. Also ask if there is a frame repair number stamped on top of the seat post forging.
Eric
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Raytag
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Re: Fishy VIN ?

#12

Post by Raytag » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:42 am

Thanks alot!!

Eric I read your tranny-id tutorial many moons ago and since I`m registered here I discovered that you provided pics :idea: Plenty of them !!
Before, without the pics (not being registerd here) I compared Palmers` information with his blurry b/w shots and your write-up and now it makes all sense :lol: Thanks. Excellent info. Really appreciate your work

I find it very hard to view the date code of the tranny once installed but I havent`t asked yet. I asked about the heads and he mentioned something of 55 cause he can`t find nothing below the rh side.
Rubone spelled it out what I was thinking when I discovered that ad first time :mrgreen:
Anyway, thank you very much for your time gents!

Need to crack my mind. Overhere the VIN is (officially) not of importance for the paperwork but it is somewhat important to me.

Thanks again
Ray

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Re: Fishy VIN ?

#13

Post by Frankenstein » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:22 am

What impresses me is how the number pad "flows" into the rest of the case. On the upper edge the texture of the case surface flows directly to the rather sharp edge made by the number surface. Likewise the case surface below the number pad is likewise uniform right to the number surface. Any number job I've seen fails to match this uniformity of surface from case itself to the vertical edges of the number pad. And the pad seems the correct height, which discounts having been ground down.
Granted, the stamped surface seems unusually smooth, except the scratches. Don't have a clue why that is. Others are font experts, and they seem to like the numbers themselves.
Probably good.
Also, by the by, xray analyses will reveal ground off numbers because of the difference in the density of the aluminum under a stamped image. I imagine deep penetration of a weld would obliterate that as well.
DD

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Re: Fishy VIN ?

#14

Post by Andygears » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:39 pm

I’ve also heard that stamping different numbers on top of the old ones, then grinding and welding will confuse an x-ray. An old biker tale, true? I don’t know.

Andygears

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