63 panhead won’t start after 12 volt conversion

Can’t kickstart after 6v to 12 v conversion

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REBELDOGG
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63 panhead won’t start after 12 volt conversion

#1

Post by REBELDOGG » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:57 am

I changed from 6v to 12v (cycle electric low amp generator, vtwin mfg. coil (2.9 ohms) and auto advance timer. Regulator is connected to generator) I have spark, checked pushrods, timing, and am getting fuel. Any ideas? Clutch not slipping and no intake leaks. Ran fine (with headlight off) before conversion. Battery is 16ah sealed type.



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Re: 63 panhead won’t start after 12 volt conversion

#2

Post by RooDog » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:30 am

This is not a smart assed comment: If all else fails, change the spark plugs.....

Did it run with the auto advance dizzy before the conversion? If the only things you changed were the 12V specific items, then that has to be where the problem is, in the new 12V pieces. Not the valves nor carb, but. did you mess with the timing? Install the dizzy along with the rest of the 12V stuff. If so, I would go back and make ABSOLUTELY SURE the dizzy is installed and timed correctly. The condencers are the same for 6 or 12V.
That's my 2 cents worth....
Again, change the plugs....
....RooDog....

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Re: 63 panhead won’t start after 12 volt conversion

#3

Post by RUBONE » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:44 am

My bet is it is 180 out....

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Re: 63 panhead won’t start after 12 volt conversion

#4

Post by REBELDOGG » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:51 am

I keep putting new spark plugs in daily trying to start it. I have messed with so many things now including timing, pushrods, and carb. I put back the original auto advance that I ran on the 6 volt in hopes it will help. No idea if I’m 180 out because flywheel has 3 marks. One is R then a line, barely an inch away is F with a line, and then finally a circle or dent. The circle is the only one that has front piston at highest point and both front exhaust and intake valves at lowest point. Weird thing is when front cylinder is at highest point (using plastic straw in spark plug hole) the rear cylinder is also near the top. I’ve only had this bike 3 months.

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Re: 63 panhead won’t start after 12 volt conversion

#5

Post by Excalibur » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:11 am

Time at full advance to "F" on compression stroke front cylinder and with small points cam.
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Re: 63 panhead won’t start after 12 volt conversion

#6

Post by Excalibur » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:00 am

Also your (2.9 ohms) coil will not suit well a conventional Panhead points timer running 12v.
5.0 ohms would nearer the mark unless you're running an electronic ignition breaker.

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Re: 63 panhead won’t start after 12 volt conversion

#7

Post by RooDog » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:21 pm

The best way I have found to do the timing is to place a finger or thumb over the front spark plug hole, sealing it, and slowly turning the crank, ccw, with the motor sprocket nut. Or, with the back wheel raised, you can do this in 4th gear, by bumping the rear wheel, again, CCW., OK?
Now once you feel compression pressure on your digit you are on the compression stroke. Now watch in the timing hole while s-l-o-w-l-y rotating the crank. The first mark to show in the hole, a vertical line, is the front cylinder 35* advance firing timing mark. Stop turning now and then check your dizzy's position, the narrower lobe is for the front cylinder. And do not neglect to force the advance, rotate the points cam with a pair of pliers, to simulate full advance under running conditions. Now, this is a street Harley, the timing need not be precise, close enough is close enough, OK?

BTW: I'm running a 12V, + a $65 AA Dizzy from eBay on my '50 Panny with excellent results, and I did not have to remove the front head to do the swap.......

and if to do not have one, get a FACTORY SERVICE MANUAL, a Parts Book, and a Tedd Cycle, V-Twin Catalog. Don't even consider the evil three: Haynes, Chilton, Clymer, they will get yo into trouble sooner or later....
....RooDog....

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Re: 63 panhead won’t start after 12 volt conversion

#8

Post by RUBONE » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:32 pm

No idea if I’m 180 out because flywheel has 3 marks.
That statement tells me you don't understand how an engine works. The flywheels have timing marks, which have nothing to do with being 180 out.
Basic engine function puts the piston at the top of the stroke twice for every firing sequence, once on the compression stroke, and once on the exhaust stroke (the marks on the flywheel will appear on both of those). You need to determine front cylinder compression stroke. If you are unsure watch the front intake pushrod while rotating the engine in the running direction (clockwise facing the engine. As the front pushrod comes down the timing mark (you will be using the one marked "F" only!) will come into the hole. At that crank position the narrow lobe should be roughly pointing at the wiper on the points. Now you can set the timing knowing you are on front piston compression (you did set the points gap or the air space if electronic before hand, right?).

And the pistons are both near the top at the same time due to it being a V-Twin with a common crankpin, however they are on opposite places in their function, one coming up on compression, one on exhaust.

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Re: 63 panhead won’t start after 12 volt conversion

#9

Post by Don P » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:41 pm

The distributor that was in the engine would have worked just fine. I concur the owner has no idea how to time the engine.

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Re: 63 panhead won’t start after 12 volt conversion

#10

Post by RooDog » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:56 pm

I just checked the MoCo's service manual and it calls for 4.7-5.7 Ohms resistance in the coil. Did this bike have the original dual points, dual coils? They most likely will not work with 12 volts....
....RooDog....

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Re: 63 panhead won’t start after 12 volt conversion

#11

Post by 48Doc » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:52 am

Rubone,
With all due respect I think you need to reevaluate Roodog's suggestion. I have used my finger over the front jug technique for years. I'm I just lucky? Your are right the timing marks come up twice, but you only feel the compression once. On the exhaust stroke you don't feel the compression. His suggestion is way easier.
Doc

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Re: 63 panhead won’t start after 12 volt conversion

#12

Post by RUBONE » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:19 am

48Doc wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:52 am
Rubone,
With all due respect I think you need to reevaluate Roodog's suggestion. I have used my finger over the front jug technique for years. I'm I just lucky? Your are right the timing marks come up twice, but you only feel the compression once. On the exhaust stroke you don't feel the compression. His suggestion is way easier.
Doc
What makes you think I was dismissing Roodogs technique? I was talking to a newby who obviously doesn't yet understand what he is dealing with. Often a visual clue is what makes sense to a new person trying to learn. Sorry if that offends you.

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Re: 63 panhead won’t start after 12 volt conversion

#13

Post by Buddhahoodvatoloco » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:09 am

Yea a Forum tussel, just like the ghetto.. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
RUBONE wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:19 am
48Doc wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:52 am
Rubone,
With all due respect I think you need to reevaluate Roodog's suggestion. I have used my finger over the front jug technique for years. I'm I just lucky? Your are right the timing marks come up twice, but you only feel the compression once. On the exhaust stroke you don't feel the compression. His suggestion is way easier.
Doc
What makes you think I was dismissing Roodogs technique? I was talking to a newby who obviously doesn't yet understand what he is dealing with. Often a visual clue is what makes sense to a new person trying to learn. Sorry if that offends you.

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Re: 63 panhead won’t start after 12 volt conversion

#14

Post by RooDog » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:55 pm

I find watching the pushrods, or the lifters, to determine the compression stroke bothersome unless the PR covers are already open for some reason such as during engine assembly on the bench. The thumb over the spark plug hole allows rotating the engine and locating both the compression stroke and the BTDC, 35*, timing mark all from the left side of the bike. Then I can move to the right side and work with setting up the dizzy. This method works best with an already fully assembled, and installed engine, usually in a previously running bike, during routine maintenance, or when the ignition circuit breaker, dizzy, has been removed for some reason or another.
It's all good, what ever sharpens your knife....
....RooDog.....

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Re: 63 panhead won’t start after 12 volt conversion

#15

Post by REBELDOGG » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:38 pm

I got it. Thank you all for the help. Turns out the brand new coil I got from V Twin Manufacturing was defective. Also, the finger over spark hole is by far the best way to set timing. Thank you for the tip.

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