My 58 FL

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George Greer
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Re: My 58 FL

#241

Post by George Greer » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:38 pm

Ok,

2nd thing the manual says to do , section 5F-3 Duoglide model, "Remove the front cylinder head from the motorcycle to provide sufficient clearance for removal of the circuit breaker assembly".

Check back in when I am done.

George



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Re: My 58 FL

#242

Post by RooDog » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:37 am

The rigid Panhead manual says the same thing, and that is just plain ridiculous. Never had to do that. When I installed a Mallory dizzy I had to take a pushrod cover loose, and maybe remove the offending PR, it's been about ten years, but never a head. I suppose even the factory books can be in error. But then they ares calling for removing it as an assembly. But why for?
The Book also offers a special tool to remove the transmission main drive seal. I have always used a sheet metal screw and a slide hammer, it ain't a precision operation. Read the book, but use your head, and your hands will only help you....
....RooDog....

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Re: My 58 FL

#243

Post by PanPal » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:07 pm

The big fin heads are a bit different from the early heads. I've run into several with the fins broken off above the timer.

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Re: My 58 FL

#244

Post by RooDog » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:16 pm

I have never had a problem with my Panny with later outside oiler heads, were those "big fins"?, Nor my 1968 Shovelhead either. Are its fins any different than a Pan's?

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Re: My 58 FL

#245

Post by PanPal » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:19 pm

The only outside oiler head I worked with was a replacment head that had the outside oiler boss but was not drilled. It was a rear head however. 58 to 62 heads are what Im most famliar with and I know I had to remove the head on one project. Stripped the timmer down to the base and the was not enough wiggle room. The stem of the timer was very tight in the hole in the case as well. I was given the same info that it could be done but could not make it happen without removing the head. No telling what may have been relieved on this old iron over the years, but I believe some will and some cant be done without removing the head.

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Re: My 58 FL

#246

Post by PanPal » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:41 pm

One othe thing about that replacement head with the outside oiler boss not drilled. It had three fins cut out at the sparkplug instead of 2 fins but it still had the 56 casting code. The guys in the pattern shop at the foundry I worked at in the 80's would modify wood patterns for sand castings due to drawing changes at times rather than make an entirly new pattern.

George Greer
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Re: My 58 FL

#247

Post by George Greer » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:18 am

OK,

After replacing the manual advance circuit breaker with the auto-advance one, and checking timing.......and checking pushrod adjustments, points adjustments, and initial settings on the carb............nadda.

No pop, cough, sneeze ..... nadda.

I have have installed the circuit breaker as per the manual and with the front cylinder up on compression stroke, intake and exhaust valve closed, and just open the points........fire at the plugs. And the timing is constant, returning to the same spot every time I go thru the timing procedure.

Installed correct needle in the linkert after taking it apart again and going over the carb..........and blowing compressed air thru all passages, I reinstalled it. The bottom needle is what should have been installed, but somehow I had the upper one installed.

Got 2 turns out on high, 5 turns out on low.

Now........choke on, 4 kicks, ignition on........nadda.

Fuel puddles at the back of the intake manifold, but BOTH plugs are bone dry......

I don't know why.......any tips??

At a loss why the fuel isn't going into the cylinders......since I have compression, all valves open and close, and push rods adjusted to a snug spin fit in the lifters.

EDIT: The only thing I think that I have not done, is check the clutch basket again and make sure the marks I put on are still in alignment when kicking it over a couple of times, ensuring the clutch basket is not slipping and part of the problem. I will do that before I try and start it up again

I'll keep at it..........dang thing should start........it did start and run 3 times.......so I am sure I am overlooking something.

George
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Re: My 58 FL

#248

Post by Excalibur » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:14 am

Checklist:
Could the fuel be stale?

Could that be too much choke? 4 kicks on full choke would be way too much for mine.

The engine can be too rich to fire and not show on the plugs. Clear it out and start over. Less enrichment..

Perhaps try some "Engine Start Ether". The thought is, if you can get a response it might give a valuable clue. This won't work if it's already flooded, clear it out first.

Is the small points cam timed to the front cylinder?

Hope it helps. Good luck!

George Greer
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Re: My 58 FL

#249

Post by George Greer » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:50 pm

Off the check list:

Fuel is fresh.

Choke...........I will try with half that.

I will get a can of starting fluid tomorrow....and if less choke don't work, give it a try.

Timing set as follows:

Front cylinder on compression stroke,

Intake valve push rod, slight drag on turning with finger's (closed).

Timing mark on cam lobe pointing to hole on circuit breaker body ( doubles as screw hole for cap, at least I think that is what it is for. There is another one but I used the one that is easy access for the cover screw), cam rotated clockwise to advance, held in that spot, body rotated to align fiber on points to timer mark on timer shaft.

George

PS, I found near me a box of 12 brand new Champion J12Y spark plugs still in their box's that I am probably get as well.

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Re: My 58 FL

#250

Post by Andygears » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:56 pm

If gas is puddling, shut it off, clear the motor, and try with gas shutoff, no choke and new plugs. You need to get a pop somehow and work from there. If the motor is clear, not flooded, and the fresh plugs are sparking, it should pop. If you got nothing still, leave the gas off and choke open. Try tossing a small bottle cap full of gas down the mouth of the carb. Or without starting ether, lacquer thinner is an alternative (old body shop trick) same thing, bottle cap full down the carb.
Without rereading your posts, you do have solid lifters right? The “just spin” procedure only works for solids, hydraulic lifters would barely open the valves if adjusted as solids, and give no response as you are getting.

Gotta get a pop somehow
Andygears

George Greer
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Re: My 58 FL

#251

Post by George Greer » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:06 pm

Andy,

Thank you for the advice.

And yes, solid lifters

Here is something that I may have overlooked.

https://www.hydra-glide.net/joomla/inde ... it-breaker

From the manual regarding auto advance circuit breakers, and something that I surely did not check yet. 1959-1969 Harley Service manual page 5F-6

"Cam (1) engages flyweights on the cam shaft in either of two positions 180 degrees apart, but only one of these positions will give correct ignition timing. If cam (1) is removed for any reason and engagement with flyweight is loss, see subsequent paragraph "installing circuit breaker".

I will be checking that as well. If it is actually 180 out of time, would that not explain why no pop, cough, hic-up....nadda, and it was only luck that she started the first time she fired up?

George

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Re: My 58 FL

#252

Post by ozwick86 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:34 pm

George,

Have you checked that your battery is still holding a charge since your shorting incident earlier?

George Greer
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Re: My 58 FL

#253

Post by George Greer » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:08 am

Yes sir it is.

So, here's what I did this morning.

Removed spark plugs, air filter, circuit breaker, re-timed engine front cyl compression stroke, intake valve closed.

Went and got some starting fluid, and went back over the instructions for installing the C/B and payed attention to the note about holding the cam against the stops. Put all that back together, plugs back in, closed pushrod cover.

With the air filter assembly off, I sprayed a bit of starting fluid in the carb, 2nd kick, pop thru the carb, sprayed again and kicked......got some action on the thru the muffler, like two or three want to be starting up firings.

Got something!

George

George Greer
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Re: My 58 FL

#254

Post by George Greer » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:35 pm

I have her running.

Seems I had several issues that I was just sure that I checked...aparently not... :oops:

Dumb mistake.........M-74 Venturi installed wrong way around....small end goes toward air-cleaner, not toward the manifold :oops: :oops:

Circuit breaker, after reading and re-reading the instruction per the manual, 1, ONE step at a time...........had her 180 Out :oops: :oops: :oops:

1 priming stroke with choke on, Three kicks......she started.

I now have to replace the throttle control rod, because after several times taking the carb off, looking for issues, bubble test....I have bent it, and it don't feel as smooth as I would like it to be......like my WLA...smooth as good Scotch.

I want to thank everyone that has commented, made and offered advice and tips.

If it was not for you fella's assistance, I probably would have given up till spring.

Now to get it all dialed in and test ridden.

Hat's off to everyone. :P

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Re: My 58 FL

#255

Post by Andygears » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:25 pm

Great George, all that bottle cap of fuel down the carb was to eliminate the carb as a problem to get that pop.

Remember the first Harley carb was a modified tomato juice can and if that’s all you need....

Andygears

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